I have been using launchers to teach Ringo he can't catch the birds. He learned at a young age that he could catch birds and now he will run up right on top of them to point knowing that the closer he gets the more likely the bird is to flush and then allow him to catch it. So I have been putting out birds in launchers and as soon as he picks up the scent and turns to the bird I launch the bird. It took about 4 birds for him to get the message and he is now pointing them much further back. I also launch the birds if he breaks his point. I have allot more work to do in this area with him, but we are making progress. I just wish I could spend more time training him for field work. He loves it and is very good. I am also working my puppy in the field too so I try to get out at least every other weekend for some work. Shame I have to have a real job, but someone has to pay for the dog food, the training, the competitions and the vet bills. LOL

BTW, I use predominantly positive reinforcement with my dogs and I have found since moving to almost all positive I am getting much more cooperation and better results.  That is not to say I never use negative as I have gotten the ecollar out for snake training and for the recall, but most everything else I have been able to find a positive way to train.  With my girl Belle I can never use negative because she shuts down on my, but Ringo and Halo are much more hard headed and have needed a bit of negative reinforcement here and there.  I admire that you are trying to get the results you want from positive training.  I too use the word yes as a marker. Good luck with your efforts.

 I don't view ignoring as a punishment, that's your opinion. And no where did I say that using force or punishment means it would hurt the dog.

It is not my opinion. For a dog  ignoring them questions their position in the pack - this is very serious issue for a dog. This is why it works so well.

I used "you" in general, not specific.

Geez getting into training discussions with other dog people is like talking religion! Francine you can tell me it doesn't work and it's wrong all you want but that just gives me more motivation to prove that I CAN do it. My dogs are NOT simply "good house dog who will only be off leash in restricted environments" and that's presumptuous of you to imply that. They compete in a vast array of sports, a couple are licensed therapy dogs, and are off lead in many places that we go. I don't have 'easy' breeds either--1 Weim, 2 GSP's, a Border Collie, and an Australian Cattle Dog. They do weight pull, dock jumping, disc, lure coursing (not the hunting GSP), conformation, skijoring, hunting.....and they do it all well. Like I've said, I'm not 100% and I do 'fail' and make some corrections, with an 'ah ah' or using a stern voice. Carly, my ACD, is a stupid pet tricks queen and all of her silly tricks have been taught 100% positive. Her reward is not a 'pat on the head' either...contrary to many people's belief that is not a motivator or reward for most dogs.

I do know both sides of the coin, growing up I was taught to train dogs the 'classical' way with force, correction, and choke collars. Alot of that was done with my Weimaraner, who I do NOT include in the accomplishments listed above. She is the worst in my house and those methods did not work with her. I have tried both ways and found, for me, positive reinforcement training, operant conditioning, whatever you want to call it, works better for me and my dogs.
I will gladly check out Susan Garrett, I am always looking for new ideas and expanding my knowledge on training. I would recommend Pat Miller and Patricia McConnell for anyone interested in expanding understanding of positive training. Ken Ramirez is pretty amazing as well, I have respect for anyone that can train all different species of animals. Here’s a few of his media bites:
http://kenramireztraining.com/media/

I think we’ve all seen the video of the dogs decorating the tree; it’s another example of positive reinforcement training:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUtPKbMwnRo


Ozzy has a pretty solid foundation of eye contact and focus on me (he learned eye contact at 8 weeks) and as such, he has a pretty darn solid recall. The down side is his focus on me is such that he doesn't quite range out as far as I'd like all the time, but he does constantly check back with me and is aware of where I'm at all the time when we're out. Even when he's on point his eyes are still constantly flicking back to me awaiting direction. Is he 100%? No, but what dog is 100%? I'm happy with having that kind of focus on me and hope to build off of it. We have a pretty strong bond and I think that will also work to our benefit.

Splat I agree--I think alot can be done without an e-collar and I hope I can keep learning and evolving as a trainer to be that right person to accomplish that.

Beth-no I have not read that NAVHDA book yet but I definitely will. I plan to run Ozzy in UPT or UT this year, whichever I feel he's ready for. We'll also be working on dock jumping, weight pull, disc, and whatever else looks like something we'll both enjoy: )

Sara

And just for fun, here are some pics of my little genius ACD:

At work:


Performing a foot stall at a stupid pet tricks contest (that she won). It's not real pretty but I taught it to her only the week before, it's much more polished now:


Back stall:


Performing a leg vault in a disc competition:


And hanging out on a log that's about 6 feet up because I asked her to:

Have you heard about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8frpx5lPY
 

First off, it is not at all my intention to bash or belittle training for frisbee, agility, posing, pet tricks - I teach or have taught my dogs all of the above. Rather, I think there is a difference between the training of (example) a frisbee dog and training a working breed for the work they will be doing. There is a bigger need for compliance and reliability for a hunting dog or a police dog, to accomplish the job at hand and also for the safety of the dog and anyone involved. Maybe that's why training is more intense/forceful when training for "the job" than when training for sports such as agility and frisbee which do not - as a matter of fact, should never - require use of an e-collar.