|
| Author |
Messages |
|
Legallyblonde
Otsego MI
MH
Posts:244
 |
| 01/25/2011 9:12 AM |
|
Does anyone have any ideas or sources for positive whoa training? I've gotten a few ideas from my disc trainers who are 100% positive trainers, but they have no background in hunting. What they've given me is kind of a foundation, but I'd like to see if anyone on here has any ideas.
By positive, I mean with positive reinforcement, no force, absolutely no shock collars.
|
|
UWPCH CA GSJCH USUVCH Boogerman Loverboy Oskar TDI CGC
SHR UWP CH Abbe Lane's Prince of Darkness TAN NA-I RBIMBS |
|
|
Phillyo118
UK
MH
Posts:681
|
| 01/25/2011 9:39 AM |
|
I've never used the shock collar with a whoa with bentley and never forced him to do anything. I just put my hand in front of his face and said whoa once and he stopped in place, maybe in surprise but he stopped and i immediatly gave him a lot of priase for it. Then built from there, time, distance, location. Do it in the house when you open a door, whoa the dog and go through first before calling the dog through.
Use a piece of carpet or a small square of wood perhaps 1m x 1m for the dog to stand on and whoa him/her there. If they step off then correct, gently but firmly, and put them back onto the square so that they learn they're not to move off it until released. |
|
"From the dog's point of view, his master is an elongated and abnormally cunning dog."
"My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am." |
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 01/25/2011 9:40 AM |
|
I saw spmething on youtube. I will try to find it.
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 01/25/2011 9:43 AM |
|
That was easy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYCTo_o3WSM |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
|
| 01/25/2011 9:50 AM |
|
| I train the moving stand (for obedience) and the whoa (hunting) pretty much the same as Philly. I never have used the ecollar on either. With my dogs I do hunting with I use the Whoa command with the moving stand and stand stay in obedience. I reserve the stay for long sits and downs. So, i will heel with the dog and when I want them to stop or whoa I move my right hand in front of their face and issue the whoa command, then praise. You can expand on that to distance very easily as the dog begins to understand the command. It transfers very easily to field work too. In the field at first I usually keep the dog on a check cord so that I can help them be successful with so many more distractions. and again when I add in the birds I will put them on a check cord at first. |
|
Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 01/25/2011 10:08 AM |
|
Nope, into the third session she uses the e-collar.
Maybe you can gain some ideas and expand with how you see yourself moving forward.
You can't train w/o force. All positive does not exist. |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
Legallyblonde
Otsego MI
MH
Posts:244
|
| 01/25/2011 11:08 AM |
|
Bev and Phillyo118--we've been doing somewhat a combo of both of your methods inside. I've tried to shape off of the 'stand' cue I use in showing, which has always been holding my hand palm facing out. It's one thing to do that on a lead and another trying to capture it off lead. I have put down a square of carpet and walking loose when all four feet are on it he gets a yes and reward. He steps off, he gets my back turned to him and nothing. He's gotten that pretty quick and is to the point I can walk to the other end of the basement and all the way around him and holds it until I release him.
My disc people had recommend starting it by 'shaping' the behavior--basically by hanging out in the basement and letting him walk to the square mat on his own accord (even by accident) and rewarding when he hits it. I was too impatient for that so I chose an in-between method by walking with him loose.
Pixie bee, I have to disagree. You can absolutely train without force. I think it's a lot easier with herding breeds than with gun dog breeds but with patience it can be done. I'll admit that I am by no means perfect at positive training, I'm constantly learning and evolving as a trainer, and have plenty of failures where I say no and correct a dog (never by force or physical correction however). It's a tough transition. My ultimate goal is to get a solid versatile dog (I have lofty dreams of a NAVHDA VC someday) with absolutely none of the old school force methods--no shock collar and no force fetch. It's been my experience, with my dogs, that a positively trained dog works better for you, probably because they enjoy it. |
|
UWPCH CA GSJCH USUVCH Boogerman Loverboy Oskar TDI CGC
SHR UWP CH Abbe Lane's Prince of Darkness TAN NA-I RBIMBS |
|
|
TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
|
| 01/25/2011 11:53 AM |
|
Most of us at NAVHDA use shock collars but there is one guy who trains without it and he is quite successful. I think it can be done depending your skills, the relationship you have with your dog, mainly THE DOG, etc. So if that is how you wish to train, and it works for you and your dog, and you just kinda want to see how far it will get you, and it's no big deal that the dog may not perfect in the end, then by all means, stick to it.
That said, I am one to say that for the great majority of hunting dogs, shock collars are needed at some point. Some dogs need them more often than others but there will come a time where negative reinforcement is needed. I find that training with both very positive and negative reinforcments is most effective as they reinforce each other. (Just to be clear all negative reinforcement should be catered to the dog and its threshold, and it's the trainer's job to recognize what that is).
Tessa is 2.5 years old. I started using the e-collar at age 14 months for recalls only. Later on for other infractions, but overall, I apply it very rarely. I have never used it on a whoa but she has reached a level where I will need to, in order to get her from a pretty good whoa to a perfect one (I hate to say 100% but you know what I mean). Because pretty good and kinda good may not be good enough during a hunt, a test or God forbid an emergency situation.
I found the whoa command relatively easy and there are many gentle ways to teach and reinforce it (as mentioned by others). I use it during leash walks too, asking her to whoa, dropping the leash and walking on while she holds. Two things I always make sure of: 1. When she breaks it, I never walk her back to the spot - I carry her. 2. When I release her, during the initial (long) training phase I don't do it from afar, only by walking back to her and either giving the verbal okay OR heeling her away. Both 1. and 2. are to avoid that the dog gets the idea that he/she can walk off a whoa.
So far I have seen no break in the enjoyment that Tessa gets from hunting with me. I may be wrong but I think if a dog is bird crazy a collar won't spoil the fun (unless abused) nor will it ruin the desire to work with/for the hunter? Incorrect use of the e-collar does that, and a lack of trust and respect. As long as commands are clear, clearly taught and understood, reinforcement well timed and fair, there should be no problem. |
|
To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
 |
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 01/25/2011 12:04 PM |
|
What do you consider force?
Any time we make someone (dog) do something other than what they want - we are forcing.
Force does not imply an amount.
How do you let the dog know that the he/she has not obeyed or breaks a known command?
There is positive reinforcement,negative reinforcement,positive punishment,negative punishment.
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
snips
n.ga.
MH
Posts:413
|
| 01/25/2011 12:24 PM |
|
I do not use a shock collar for Whoa...Only loosly put a dog collar around the flank, hook leash to front and gently give a pull back with the leash as I walk around in front..If they step foreward I gently set them back with the rear collar..They figure it out pretty quick with no pressure. |
|
brenda |
|
|
Legallyblonde
Otsego MI
MH
Posts:244
|
| 01/25/2011 12:26 PM |
|
Pixie Bee--It's not force to shape a behavior or to ask for one. Force is if you don't do it, this bad thing will happen to you. Positive training, if you won't do what I'm asking, you don't get whatever I'm offering in exchange. That's pretty much what happens (should happen) when a dog does not obey, depending on what it is. Like I said, I'm not perfect and say no plenty of times so I'm not 100%, but I'm trying.
TessaGA--I apologize if I implied that dogs conditioned with shock collars enjoy hunting any less....I didn't intend that and my statement came out wrong. I've seen plenty of happy dogs on shock collars; everyone I train with in my NAVHDA chapter uses them. I'm the odd woman out. I've also seen plenty of abuse with shock collars as well, and dogs that turn into a different animal once the shock collar is put on.
I'm not criticizing others for using the shock collar or force methods, it's just not for me and not what I want to do. I was simply asking this GSP community if anyone has trained whoa positively, or knows any particular methods or pointers. I figured there were some people who use positive reinforcement on here that might have some ideas, I really wasn't trying to start a debate.
|
|
UWPCH CA GSJCH USUVCH Boogerman Loverboy Oskar TDI CGC
SHR UWP CH Abbe Lane's Prince of Darkness TAN NA-I RBIMBS |
|
|
TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
|
| 01/25/2011 12:50 PM |
|
Debates are good! It's discussions like these I enjoy most here, it's always good food for thought, so I am glad you posted.
I do admire the guy I train with that hasn't used the collar on his dog. The dog is super responsive, so obviously, things are working out for them. I hope they work out for you too. Would have probably gone the same route except Tessa needs a bit more enforcement.
The reason why so many proponents of e-collars answered here is probably because a larger percentage of us uses them. But of course, nobody teaches the dog the whoa with the e-collar - it is only used by some to perfect it later on, and we all rely on positive methods to teach it initially and I think you got some pretty good suggestions.
|
|
To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
|
|
|
TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
|
| 01/25/2011 1:13 PM |
|
Positive training, if you won't do what I'm asking, you don't get whatever I'm offering in exchange.
My trusted dog trainer of 20 plus years who embraces many methods of training a dog, from clicker to pinch to e-collar always says it's just like a job that you hold. You show up, you get paid (reward). You don't show up, you get fired (punishment). If your boss would leave it up to you when you want to show up (for pay) or not (for no pay) there will be times when not showing up will be more enticing than the reward, so you don't show up because you know nothing bad will happen to you.
That is a choice I do not want my dog to have, for example, with a recall. Dog runs out towards traffic, you call him back, dog ignores, thinking, I'd rather keep running, I know I won't get my reward but right now, running after this squirrel is more important to me.
Using negative reinforcement will make it very clear to the dog that coming back to you IS more important than running after a squirrel. |
|
To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
|
|
|
Legallyblonde
Otsego MI
MH
Posts:244
|
| 01/25/2011 1:16 PM |
|
I think *positive* (pun intended!) debate is good, but I just don't want it to turn into an argument of the various training methods, which so often happens amongst dog people LOL. At a training session I had an older guy actually get MAD at me, was offended that I don't want to use a shock collar! I have just seen a great improvement in my more recent dogs that I use positive training with. I feel more bonded to them, and I feel like I get a more consistent dog out of it. My ACD would SHUT DOWN if I used any kind of force or pressure on her, but with positive training she offers behaviors and tries her darndest to figure out what I'm asking her to do when we're training new things. With my dogs, it has led them to try to figure out what I'm asking and use their heads more rather than me pressuring them into it. Does that make sense?
I just want to see if anyone had any new ideas, anything I'm not trying already. It's going great in the basement but the real challenge next will be outside, and then with birds! I have a hard time wrapping my head around the dog not associating the whoa with the mat. I feel like training them on the mat to the dog means "stop when your feet hit this mat." Or same for on lead. Might be time to revisit and reinforce eye contact.... |
|
UWPCH CA GSJCH USUVCH Boogerman Loverboy Oskar TDI CGC
SHR UWP CH Abbe Lane's Prince of Darkness TAN NA-I RBIMBS |
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 01/25/2011 1:32 PM |
|
There is no way to teach steadiness w/o force at some point.
You could start with treats to get the command understood and transfer this to the field. I just don't see a dog who wouldrather get a treat or 'goob boy' instead of chasing,grabbing,etc.
At some point you would have to use a leash,NO,pick up and place back into position.
Even if you ignore you are training using punsihment.
I don't think the e-collar is a necessary tool, I only beleive that trainers need to use some form of force - it doesn't imply, at all, that you need to hurt a dog.
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
|
| 01/25/2011 1:33 PM |
|
For outside, you may want to try a modified use of the barrel. You can skip the rope tied to the dog's collar if that is too much force for you, and just put the dog on a large barrel (non-slip surface) that rocks when the dog moves. At first, you steady the barrel between a rock on one side and your knee on the other, and help the dog be still. As you let go, the moment the dog moves, the barrel shakes and that alone is a little unsettling to the dog so he holds still again. Ideally, he should fall off to learn even faster but you can adjust this to your needs and I think it will still help. Tessa learned in minutes that when up on that barrel she can't move as much as a foot or turn her head or she will lose her balance.
Once the dog holds still on the barrel, tempt him with a bird (walking or dead), tennis ball, anything the dog will surely break the whoa for. Repeat until dog is steady on barrel with temptations.
Dogs are place-orientated so the next step is to place the dog in a whoa BESIDE the barrel and repeat. Then move the dog further and further away from the barrel (all of that done over several sessions of course). |
|
To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
|
|
|
TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
|
| 01/25/2011 1:39 PM |
|
Here is a link to the barrel training without use of rope. Not sure if using a bird on a pole is right or wrong from a bird dog training perspective, never used it, but this is mainly to demonstrate the barrel steadiness:
www.youtube.com/watch |
|
To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
|
|
|
oneal3337
Great Falls, Mt
MH
Posts:107
|
| 01/25/2011 1:58 PM |
|
| One thing to consider is the safety of your dog out in the field. If you've properly trained your dog with an e-collar you can stop him when he's headed toward danger such as a busy road whether or not he can see or hear you. |
|
|
|
|
Legallyblonde
Otsego MI
MH
Posts:244
|
| 01/25/2011 2:13 PM |
|
Pixie Bee--When you get a consistent desired behavior, you phase out treats, and just click or praise or whatever you do (I personally use 'yes' and not the clicker.) No my dog would not prefer treats over chasing, grabbing etc, but I hope he has a solid foundation by the time I am ready to ask for a whoa in the field. I don't know how all of this will play out, but I may have to use some 'pressure' by keeping him on a check cord when we first test the whoa in the field, simply so he does not catch a bird, depending on what we're training on. If it's launchers, I won't necessarily, because if he breaks through the whoa, the bird will be launched, and he won't get what he wants. I don't view ignoring as a punishment, that's your opinion. And no where did I say that using force or punishment means it would hurt the dog.
TessaGA I think those are some good suggestions and not that different from laying a foundation with disc dogs. Some people take an exercise ball and place it in something that holds in in place, but the dog still has to balance when on it. It's used for a different purpose, teaching a dog to get up on less sturdy platforms in order to later teach them various body vaults, but another foundation. That could be helpful! |
|
UWPCH CA GSJCH USUVCH Boogerman Loverboy Oskar TDI CGC
SHR UWP CH Abbe Lane's Prince of Darkness TAN NA-I RBIMBS |
|
|
TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
|
| 01/25/2011 2:24 PM |
|
If it's launchers, I won't necessarily, because if he breaks through the whoa, the bird will be launched, and he won't get what he wants.
He may learn to like the chase (of the bird that is launched). IMO a check cord is a must.
BTW I love your avatar. |
|
To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.7
|
You must be logged in to use this module.
|
 |
Membership: |
 |
Latest:
CliffBaill |
 |
New Today:
0 |
 |
New Yesterday:
0 |
 |
Overall:
3204 |
 |
People Online: |
 |
Visitors:
142 |
 |
Members:
0 |
 |
Total:
142 |
Online Now:
|
|
|
|
|