Well...we have been working on steadyness while pointing, and that once they have a bird it dosn't mean they get to strip all the feathers off the poor thing.  

I am glad you feel it is not too soon to take them out...I decided to take Adie out this Friday on a hunt by myself...just to see what she does.I have been told I am making a mistake.  That some how I am going to ruin my dog. Thanks
 

Your dogs are born "steady to wing, shot & fall" ??

Rob

Francine, if I'm shooting live ammunition at birds over pointing dogs............ yes- 'steady to shot' is required by me of any dog I'm hunting behind.

For safety reasons- if nothing else

Rob

Francine, let me expand on my initial comments.........

Pointing dogs should point game & HOLD their game until released.  I've yet to see a pointing dog who was steady to fall get shot.  I just finished 5 days of Woodcock, Grouse & Pheasant hunting behind my young, 17+ month old, green broke dog.  If she stands her birds, we shoot.  If she breaks, we don't shoot.  If she commits a 'delayed chase' on multiple shots, I whoa her to a stop, and send my partner for the retrieve.  In the winter, spring & summer, we train every day.  I very much believe in & support early exposure of hunting dogs to hunting scenarios & enviroments.  I very much oppose allowing pointing dogs to develop bad habits.

In the field trial games which we play, in broke dog (adult) stakes, if the dog takes a step during the wing/shot sequence- they get picked up.  So it's very much a "no-no" to allow the dog to move on a pointed bird until released by the handler.

We could debate for hours what "well bred" really means.  I've seen NAVHDA Utility dogs who were scored "4" in search who I wouldn't feed.  Others would say that field trial dogs are mostly just self-hunting run-offs....... go figure.

Steady is steady, it takes training.  No pointing dog is born DEAD BROKE- it takes time, patience, exposure to all sorts of situations, and the innate ability, on the part of the dog, to handle the level of training (yes, correction when they screw up- and they will) associated with getting a dog DEAD BROKE.

Hunting behind a dead broke dog is not only a beauty to behold, but an absolute enjoyable experience.

Rob

I've seen NAVHDA Utility dogs who were scored "4" in search who I wouldn't feed.  Others would say that field trial dogs are mostly just self-hunting run-offs....... go figure

One is fact and the other is hearsay. No doubt which one favors your preferred venue. Seems to me, you would see more FT and AKC HT dogs then NAVHDA dogs. And there's not 1 you wouldn't feed? Interesting observation on your behalf.

You also said, which you deleted, that you wouldn't shoot over a  non steady pointing dog but you would a lab. Why is that? Don't you like labs?

Pointing dogs should point game & HOLD their game until released

Pointing dogs must hold game, what happens after that is preference. It can be debated forever which is better - steady to fall or break at the flush. Some people put high value on a dog who self relocates and pins moving birds/game. I'm one of them.Holding game is what a pointing dog must do.

In all honesty Rob, I can't figure out what your beef is with what I posted.

One of the dogs being hunted by the OP is about 10 months old?

Are you suggesting the dogs stay home until they are better obedience trained to shot?

Hunting behind a dead broke dog may be enjoyable for you - but  - it isn't necessary to enjoy a hunt over a dog.

You deleted it, but you mentioned I test in the German system.  Yes, and the system is much about obedience AND it is much about natural ability. A dead broke dog has nothing to do with natural ability. It is pure training.We don't breed training, we breed innate ability. I guess it can be debated if handling pressure is natural ability, IMO, handling pressure is about an individual dog's nerve(weak to strong nerve). You can have an intensley innate ability dog who is steady to flush and shot on its own,never be dead broke and put up all types of game. Dead broke is not equivlant to producing game for the gun.

Sorry to hear that taking one step will DQ a dog. Not realistic. I can see why a dead broke dog is important to you - you need to win.

Francine

Ok everyone deep breath!  I am looking at the hunts that we go on this year to be like the first few scrimages in any sporting season.  We have spent almost everyday training once or twice a day working up to this moment. (I am speaking of Adelaide the liver one) This week  is the final week of her taper. She points...i flush...she stays glued to where she is...I shoot with 12 Ga....birds falls...I say her name....she retrieves bird. I am happy to say if perfect is 10 I would give her 7. She took a step after I shot and has to take a few feathers off before she returns the birds to me. I am happy with this for an 8 month pup. She just needs to work a few kinks out, and that will just take sagely experience. Which I am going to try to give as much as I can... because i hope to start waterfowl training this spring when the water gets warm.

Lucy is a different story. (the black one) She has the luxury of doing whatever she wishes her whole life. If there was a need for point to pounce she would be Queen!  If she sees Adie pointing she will sprint in that direction and pounce on the exact spot Adie is pointing. This is funny..but needs a bit of refining.

Well we are 2 days a counting...I will give a FULL report on Sunday!

Francine, we've hijacked this thread long enough- this will be my last post on this subject.  If you want to continue this discussion, let's do it privately, via PM.

But to answer your question about my "beef" with your post, the answer is this- I have no beef whatsoever.  Did you not notice the emoticon that was at the end of my initial question?  It was the "confused" emoticon.  I was  legitimately confused and was asking a question.

As for what I posted & deleted: I never, repeat NEVER, mentioned Labs.  I did mention about your dogs testing in the German system, but nothing negative & when I posted it, the formatting came out like my post was part of one of your posts (within the shaded boxes) so I decided for the sake of clarity, to revise my post and start anew.

I was very involved with NAVHDA and AKC Hunt Tests years ago.  I was an AKC Hunt Test Judge as well as being in the NAVHDA Apprentice Judges program until the travel requirements associated with my job prevented me from accepting Apprentice Judging assignments.  My point is- I've played in all 3 venues & have seen lots of dogs in each (AKC FTs, AKC HTs & NAVHDA).

Let me be clear about something though-FIRST & FOREMOST I'm a wild bird hunter.  I hunt Grouse, Woodcock, Pheasant, Hungarian Partridge, Chukar, Prarie Chicken, Quail, Ducks & Geese all around the United States. 

I don't want my pointing dogs breaking after they establish point for a few reasons:

- Safety:  if you have a dog that breaks after the shot and your dog points a bird that flushes & is shot, if there is ANOTHER bird holding tight that now flushes on the shot of the first bird......... you have a problem as you now have a moving dog breaking in the direction of a second flushed bird!  If the second bird is flying low and the dog isn't wearing a bell and you're hunting with someone who doesn't realize that the dog is moving in the potential direction of the second shot towards the second bird........ you have a very REAL,
very BIG problem.  I've been wild bird hunting long enough to have seen this very scenario (bird-wise, delayed second or even third flush on initial shots), so I know it's real- I've been there, it happens.

- Enjoyment of the hunt: broke dogs don't won't interfere with a bracemate's birdwork.  They will stay put through their bracemate's point/shot/fall &retrieve sequence.  It's called manners and I prefer any pointing dog I'm hunting over to have them.  But to each their own- so long as you're not hunting with me.

- Consistent with AKC Master Hunter criteria, AKC Field Trial criteria (for broke dog stakes), American Field criteria (for broke dog stakes), NAVHDA Invitational criteria (pursuant to steadiness through a bracemate's point/flush/shot & retrieve sequence at a minimum, ).

In reviewing this whole train wreck of a hijack, I think you may have responded in an overly sensitive manner to both my initial question (yes, it was a question) as well as my two follow up posts.  I have no issues with you, your dogs or the systems in which  you choose to test your dogs.  I just had a question.

If you don't choose for your dogs to be steady to fall- that is your choice & I respect that.  I just don't subscribe to the same school of thought and I would expect for you to respect my choice and not pull any cheap shots by insinuating that I "have to win". 

I'm a sportsman- I play by the rules & always wish the handler of my dog's bracemate "good luck" before we cut our dog's loose.  It's just like I teach my two young boys....... learn how to win gratiously & lose with dignity.  Just like in sports, someone has to win & someone has to lose.  In a Field Trial stake however, there is usually only one winer and everyone else isn't getting any points unless the entery is unusually large.  This is very different than NAVHDA or AKC Hunt Tests where dogs are scored to a standard- in these venues, on any given day, EVERY dog could pass or every dog could NOT pass.  This creates an entirely different mindset for the participants.  Do I want my dog to win when I enter her in a Field Trial stake?  Of course- I wouldn't spend the time, effort or money associated with gettting to the trial if I didn't want my dog to win.  That DOESN'T mean that if my dog doesn't win it's the end of the world for me and my weekend is ruined.  It's the chance you take when you bring your dog to the line at a FT, they very well could lose- deal with it.  But always be a good sportsman. 

I'm done- peace out.

Rob  

I am reposting this...I think the new thread monster seems to have eaten my original post.