|
| Author |
Messages |
|
nmu98
Posts:13
 |
| 09/13/2010 4:56 AM |
|
I have read this site for a long time and finally registered. Thank you for all the wonderful information here.
My family is going to get a dog in the next week. We have been looking for the right GSP to "rescue" for some time with no luck. I have watched craigslist and nothing of interest has shown up.
So we are looking at a few places and we ran across VonWeider kennels. They have some young (1.25 year old) finished dogs. At first I was not into it, I wanted more of a puppy, but after thinking about the opportunity to have a wonderful professionally trained hunting dog and one that is obedience trained, kind of made me excited.
With that said, these dogs are not house broken.
I have talked to another breeder and he has said this about his dogs "The experience I have with them is that all the dogs I have seen have very low tail sets. I cannot breed to them but as far as the rest of the line I have seen very little of them in the high end dogs that I look at but if you like the temperament and the looks of the dog then you scored."
Does a low tail set mean they are docked lower than normal? What are your thoughts on a finished dog? Am I nuts for going this way? Any help would be great.
My family has never had an inside dog. Neither my wife nor I have had a dog in many years. We are very close to many people who have dogs and we care for their dogs on a very normal basis. Our kids are younger 4 and 6. I hunt when I can, but I am in the woods about 3 times a week messing around with something. Any insight, help, anything would be great!
If its ok to post a link:
We are looking at Milee. She is a smaller female. |
|
|
|
|
tnbndr
New Berlin, Wisconsin
MH
Posts:115
|
| 09/13/2010 5:16 AM |
|
Your story sounds a lot like my wife and myself several years ago. After losing my Chocolate Lab/GSP mix I was in search of a new partner. My wife and I agreed years ago "no puppies" as we both work full time and don't have the time to commit to training a puppy. We searched for rescues also, problem is you don't know their history or if they will hunt and I like to bird hunt.
We ended up with a rescue of sorts. A 3 year old returned to the breeder as the owner could no longer care for it. The breeder spayed the dog, kept in the house for a month to house train it for us. Price was right, this dog had been used as a guide dog on a game preserve so they showed me it's hunting qualities. That dog has turned out to be a dream come true. Great in the house and around people and loves to hunt. We have sinced adopted another similar situation dog, a 4 year old that also was never house trained. We spayed this one ourselves and house trained it. It took a while but it can be done. You just have to treat them just as a puppy. Follow them around the house and let them out often.
As for your other questions about tail set, etc. That is another breeder looking at the dog and comparing it to what his breeding standards are. It is just someone's opinion and has nothing to do with the personality or ability of the dog. If you like the dog and the way it behaves and works, that is all that matters. These dogs become amazing companions and settle in to the family routine fairly quick.
You stated that you are going to get a dog in the next week. Don't hurry in your decision. Do your research and make sure it is right for you. Hope some of this information helps you with your decision. |
|
Dennis |
|
|
Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3134
|
| 09/13/2010 5:21 AM |
|
Going off my horse knowledge cuz I don't have much knowledge of dog confirmation I would say that low tail set means the place where the tail is actually connecting to the dogs body...if the tail was held straight out and not up does it make a straight line with the back or does it dip down (for being low)...
When I bought Blitz I was not to wise on the breed or breeding specifics...his breeders did hunt their dogs but nothing for points or testing (as far as I am aware of). I love Blitz (very obedient GSP and well behaved and only 1 yr old) but now that I have gotten Striker and I know he is an amazingly well bred dog I see the differences. I I have been trying to work on setting up both dogs for show confirmation type stuff, though it is very hard to do with a 11 week old pup so very basic here just working on a command for staying standing which is going good (he does not try to sit at all, wiggle yes)...I believe Blitz has a low tail set cuz I can tell even when he is out in the yard his tail connects to his body different than Striker...
As far as the tail set it only matters depending on what you want to do with your dog...if you aren't gonna breed or show it doesn't matter, though we all wish breeders wouldn't breed dogs that produce wrong "traits" (not sure if that is the correct term)...
As for the age of the dog you should get with your kids...so many factors...my kids are 10 and 6...we went with puppies cuz we wanted to know the history of our dog completely we have the kids friends over all the time, we camp so we just need to know what to expect from our dogs as much as we possibly can and we wanted to introduce them to all the craziness of out lives from a young age. This breed actually does good with people and kids and busy lives so you could still have an older dog do well, but it was just our choice. The bigger the dog the stronger their wiggly happy bumps are, so if your kids aren't use to getting bumped around by a big dog you may want to start with a puppy, but then you have puppy teeth and nails...My 6 year old was 5 when we got Blitz and he is a small 5 and he did fine with the puppy teeth and stuff like that... |
|
 |
|
|
everbell
Kanata, ON
MH
Posts:3164
|
| 09/13/2010 5:46 AM |
|
Our first GSP was a puppy we got directly from the breeder. Loved the experience, but when it came time for number 2, we decided to foster one of the breeder's dogs. She was to have one more litter (for a total of 3) and then she would be ours.
Shiraz immediately fit in with Bogart (maybe better since she had been a momma) and knew how to put him in his place. Because she had been with the breeder her whole life, we didn't have to worry about the "unknowns".
Having done it both ways, I would definitely prefer an older dog ... |
|
Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures |
|
|
Rob Hopkins
New England
MH
Posts:89
|
| 09/13/2010 6:09 AM |
|
This dog is 15 months old and "finished" ?!?!? 
I'd find out what the definition of "Finished" really means. Steady to wing, multiple shot & fall? Force broke to retrieve? Honor/back another dog's point through the retrieve? That's what a "finished" dog will do in my book.
Don't worry about the low tailset, it refers to where the tail attaches to the dog's back/butt. If you're not breeding this dog, this is a non-factor.
Housebreaking a 15 month old dog......... that's something I wouldn't want to do. That's your call however....... buy alot of White Vinegar! 
Rob |
|
May all your dog's points be productive....... |
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
|
| 09/13/2010 6:11 AM |
|
Hi and welcome to the forum.
Yes, the tail sets are very low. Truth be told, if he had a plan to better his breeding program he wouldn't produce dogs with such conformation shortcomings. It's his choice.
I went to the site but didn't see any info on what is considered a finished dog.
I would make sure I see the dog work and that the dog will work for me and that to get the dog to work for me would be free OR a reseaonable rate.
What health guarentee is he offering and you could do PennHip now or wait until 2 years old and do OFA - what happens if the hips are not good?
Why did you choose Milee?
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
nmu98
Posts:13
|
| 09/13/2010 6:23 AM |
|
Rob,
Maybe finished is a bad word. She is more than started. I guessed that housebreaking a 15 month old would be easier than a puppy? Not true?
We are looking at Miley for a few reason. One she is younger and a female. Since none of the dogs are fixed, I guessed we might have a problem with males marking in the house. I also guessed that a female would be less apt to try to fight other dogs and hunt better with other dogs.
Miley is on the smaller side and he does not want to breed her so there is a slight discount, not that that is my factor in choosing her. Smaller in the house was better in my thoughts.
I know nothing of a health yet - here is the ad "Started and Finished German Shorthaired Pointers for Sale. 1- 3 years old. Professionally trained by a 20 year veteran on a 400 acre Licensed Shooting Preserve. These dogs are health certified and ready to hunt THIS SEASON. Specifically bred to impress in the field and be great household companions/family pets. "
In all seriousness, if its easier to housebreak a puppy, I have a breedwer closer who has a 10 week old male that his daughter fell in love with and he says has is almost house broke. I could pay for a lot of training with the cost difference. from this guy www.pointerdogs.com
I assumed the older dog would be 200 percent easier to work with due to obedience and just the inteligence. |
|
|
|
|
Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3134
|
| 09/13/2010 6:33 AM |
|
I have not had any problems training mine from puppies...obedience or potty training...they learn how I want them to learn...where I could see an older dog being set in it's ways so it might take longer to potty train or get them use to your ways...but it all depends on the dog...
From my experience I owned a female boxer and she didn't get along with other dogs...the males I have had I don't have any issues with... |
|
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
|
| 09/13/2010 6:47 AM |
|
In the picture she doesn't have any style. Looks like a a lot of pressure has been out on her.
Go see her work, if you like what you see,negaotiate a price and get her.
How much is he asking?
FWIW, it doesn't take much to breed a GSP that will do a 1/2 a$$ed search,point a bird and make a semi-decent retrieve.
So....
be sure you are getting a dog that has actually been trained,has style in the field
and WILL HUNT. Know what range you are comfortable with out in the field- if she hunts too close OR too far, is she checking in,is sheholding at least to shot,does she come all the way in with the retrieve,even if she drops it within 5' of you,is she air scenting, ground scentingg,both?, how is sheon runners and cripples, does she hunt dead?Just a few questions to start the wheels turning for what you need to be looking for when someone says adog is started or finished.
Oh, and lets not forget the e-collar. I see she is wearing one. Is this an expense you will need to incur? Find out how she was collar conditioned - if it was done properly and how you will be using the collar for corrections,etc.
Hope I didn't boggle you too much.
This is an investment in money and commitment for the next 10+ years.
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
|
| 09/13/2010 6:58 AM |
|
If I were in your shoes, I would find someone who truly knows what they are looking at and have them help you. Contact your local GSP club and join even before buying the dog if possible. Be assured, there are truly finished dogs at that age out there, who hunt hard, have style, desire, and have been gently broken, sounds contradictory, and who are the real deal. However, there are few trainers who can break a dog, have it retrieving, and have it hunting hard and independently at that age. Tailset and carriage are eye of the beholder thing. I won't own a dog that doesn't carry its tail high and point with loftiness. But, many would disagree.
I think Pixie Bee is right on!!
I would go to the kennel, take your mentor, see his dogs worked, do they hunt hard are the broke, do they have desire, do they like the trainer or are they cowardly, how are the facilities, clean, nice kennels, how many litters does this person have per year, they are tested(OFA, thyroid, eyes, etc.), does he field trial, hunting test, or hunt his dogs on wild birds????
If he says he's just too busy to hunt, doesn't test or trial, run scared. These dogs have to be proven to prove they are of breeding quality, not because they have a granddad who was a MH or NFC or FC, but the parents need to be proven. Parents, purely IMHO, should be hunted every year on wild birds, should be a FC at minimum, or be a MH who is hunted, before they are proven.
Like was said, please don't make a mistake that you have to live with for 10 plus years. You'll love the dog no matter, but it costs just as much to feed a bad one as it does a good one. |
|
|
|
|
nmu98
Posts:13
|
| 09/13/2010 6:59 AM |
|
Please keep everything coming. here is a bit more of important info that I forgot. I should not have, but.
This dog was not bred by this kennel. VW sold a good dog to Guy A. Guy A bred this dog with another good dog and sold 8 of 12 pups. Guy A called VW and wanted to sell him some of the excess pups. VW went and bought them all back due to the "horrible" conditions they were in. The dog I am looking at, Milee, was given to Guy A's niece and durring the day she was chained to a dog coupe otside. The neighbors complained and Milee was returned to Guy A. So I assume VW puchased all the dogs at about 12 to 14 weeks.
So, Milee has had a past. I guess thats a bit that pulled at my heart strings. His normal dogs are $2,500 to $3,500. More for the amount of training. Milee is $1,750.
Milee has not hunted with a beeper. I was told she needed a shock collar only for safety. If you wing a bird and its crossing a road and a trucks comming, you give her a shock to remind her to come back. She is whistle trained. Issue I have is that I know very little about a lot of this. I hunt labs. Pointers are new to me.
Its a 5 hour drive, so I planned to go friday night, see them saturday and bring one home. Its too far to go and just check stuff out. Maybe its not a good idea?
Any help? |
|
|
|
|
Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7843
|
| 09/13/2010 7:28 AM |
|
I would second everything pixie and trueblue said. If your heart is set on going to see Miley, then go, but if anything doesn't seem right turn around and walk away. For my two cents, in addition to what has already been said, I prefer a puppy. It must have health clearances and at a minimum I like to see the dam. I also want to know the pedigree of the pup. I look for versatility and good temperament in my pups, and of course good health. I then want to know what the breeder has done for puppy development and socialization. All of that gives me a good idea of what I am getting with my puppy. After that, I start my training when I get the puppy home. That way I know totally what I am getting and how they are trained. I want my dogs willingly working for me and not because they have been forced.
On the breeders side, I have my first litter with my girl, Halo, right now and I am spending allot of time with the puppies and my puppy buyers. I work very hard to match the right puppy with the right new owner because as someone already said this puppy hopefully will have a home for a long time with that owner (approx. 15 years). I want both puppy and new owner happy. I also arm my puppy buyers with allot of information and guidance on how to manage, train, and care for their new puppy, and I am a resource for them throughout the life of the puppy they buy from me. I invest allot more than money in the puppies as for me it is a labor of love. Makes for very sound pups and adult dogs.
That is allot of money you are paying for a dog, so make sure that dog is what you want. Ask questions and don't be shy. If the breeder or owner of the dog is worth anything they will spend the time with you to answer all your questions. Good luck!! |
|
Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
|
|
DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
|
| 09/13/2010 9:29 AM |
|
That's a lot of money to pay for a dog that didn't have a good start. Don't underestimate the lifelong impact of a pup who lived through neglect at a young age and didn't get all the good experiences she should have. I suspect she's very timid - and that's probably why she's not hunted with a beeper collar (I bet it scares her) and why she lacks style.
Just go and make the decision with your head, not your heart. Easier said than done though... |
|
"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
|
|
nmu98
Posts:13
|
| 09/13/2010 9:44 AM |
|
My head right now says run.
This gentleman said to me that he wants all of his dogs to be inside dog. I know he has a ton of them, but it would be nice if he could work twords house braking them.
It would be smarter to start with a pup and train along the way. |
|
|
|
|
DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
|
| 09/13/2010 10:14 AM |
|
Totally agree. We've had as many as 10 dogs here (and I know pros have many more, so it becomes unmanageable) and they are all house dogs and therefore are housebroken. If that's what he wants for her, he needs to housebreak her and see how she does in the house. |
|
"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
|
| 09/13/2010 10:25 AM |
|
It's nice to rescue a dog. $1,750 is not a rescue. 100 bucks is a rescue
(and he may have to pay you!)
With what's available in your state I don't see why you would want this dog. Or any dog from his kennel. If you wanted just a GSP, go to a rescue. I would not drive 5 hours for what I see is being offered.Maybe he can send you a 5 minute video of her working and retrieving before you make the drive?
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
nmu98
Posts:13
|
| 09/13/2010 10:32 AM |
|
These people are an hour away from me and they have spent the time on the phone with me explaining how they take care of thier dogs. They recomended to me the pup on the left.
http://www.eulenhof.com/July_2__2010_Litter.html
They said he is very laid back in the house and has done great with kids. He is 9/10 weeks old. Do any of you see any issues with him? His tail does not look low to me? I plan to drive here and check these out, including thier other litter and drive over to the rooster ranch and see thier dogs. |
|
|
|
|
nmu98
Posts:13
|
| 09/13/2010 10:33 AM |
|
| I am also open to going to almost any kennel in Michigan that you guys know have good GSP's! |
|
|
|
|
everbell
Kanata, ON
MH
Posts:3164
|
| 09/13/2010 10:47 AM |
|
| After looking at both sites, one offers health guarantees, the other makes no mention of health checks. I know which one I would choose ... |
|
Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures |
|
|
trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
|
| 09/13/2010 10:57 AM |
|
| I didn't see a sign of pedigrees on the VM website, can you post a pedigree of this pup. The second litter has a pedigree but I guess I would need to know what you really want. Are you looking for a housepet or a hunting dog or both? I don't see a sign of a field title in the second litters pedigree. If you are wanting a hunting companion, do the owners of this second litter hunt their dogs on wild birds or field test their dogs? If you are wanting a pet, then I would suggest going the GSP rescue route, they usually have pups. If you are wanting a hunting dog then I would suggest looking further. I would talk to Jim Yates, he's in Michigan and knows dogs. |
|
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.7
|
You must be logged in to use this module.
|
 |
Membership: |
 |
Latest:
misskristine |
 |
New Today:
0 |
 |
New Yesterday:
1 |
 |
Overall:
3206 |
 |
People Online: |
 |
Visitors:
104 |
 |
Members:
0 |
 |
Total:
104 |
Online Now:
|
|
|
|
|