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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 06/04/2010 6:13 AM |
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After more thought I have come to definite conclusions (which are my opinions only)
that gameness is another word for sharpness and both words are synonymous with aggression. It has little to do with prey drive and is actually the killing response that a dog displays. In shorthairs it is game sharpness. Level of game sharpness would directly correlate to level of hardness.
I admire dogs so bold, but hope that the owners/trainers realize that a dog needs to be evaluated for this at a young age - not all dogs who are bold possess intelligence and quick reflexes to survive.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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boognish
Idaho
MH
Posts:105
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| 06/04/2010 8:56 AM |
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Posted By Terra's Owner on 06/03/2010 12:15 PM
I have been reading this discussion with interest. I don't hunt and I certainly don't fight dogs so I don't have any first hand experience.
But is this testamonial what is considered "gameness" ?
http://www.pocahontasplotts.com/testimonials.htm
read the first testamonial by the guy from NH.
You might also want to read the testamonial at the bottom of the first cougar hunting page:
http://www.pocahontasplotts.com/cats.htm
This is also one of my favorite dog related websites. Mr Walker has produced some beautiful dogs that apparently excel at hunting. Lots of good photos. If you look through his photos, look at the deceased dog photos. On page 6, check out the former dog Jezabel. She used to be on the female dog page. On page 5, Ginger used to be on the female page too. I wonder what happened to them?
On the male dogs at stud page, first photo, check out Dakota. I think he is part tiger.
Life is to short - I want to have a small pack of gsps and a small pack of plotts. Probably not at the same time though.
Hopefully the links came out and work.
I hate bear and cougar hunting with dogs. Chase a bear or cougar until exhaustion with a pack of dogs, potentially getting some of them killed along the way, until the quarry climbs a tree. Then stroll over and shoot the bear/cougar out of the tree. What a bunch of tough guys. I'd like to turn a pack of dogs on them sometime.
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gatsby
SoCal
SH
Posts:50
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| 06/04/2010 10:04 AM |
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Posted By boognish on 06/04/2010 8:56 AM
Posted By Terra's Owner on 06/03/2010 12:15 PM
I have been reading this discussion with interest. I don't hunt and I certainly don't fight dogs so I don't have any first hand experience.
But is this testamonial what is considered "gameness" ?
http://www.pocahontasplotts.com/testimonials.htm
read the first testamonial by the guy from NH.
You might also want to read the testamonial at the bottom of the first cougar hunting page:
http://www.pocahontasplotts.com/cats.htm
This is also one of my favorite dog related websites. Mr Walker has produced some beautiful dogs that apparently excel at hunting. Lots of good photos. If you look through his photos, look at the deceased dog photos. On page 6, check out the former dog Jezabel. She used to be on the female dog page. On page 5, Ginger used to be on the female page too. I wonder what happened to them?
On the male dogs at stud page, first photo, check out Dakota. I think he is part tiger.
Life is to short - I want to have a small pack of gsps and a small pack of plotts. Probably not at the same time though.
Hopefully the links came out and work.
I hate bear and cougar hunting with dogs. Chase a bear or cougar until exhaustion with a pack of dogs, potentially getting some of them killed along the way, until the quarry climbs a tree. Then stroll over and shoot the bear/cougar out of the tree. What a bunch of tough guys. I'd like to turn a pack of dogs on them sometime.
I realize that this is a forum for the promotion of the GSP and some of you or many of you may not be hunters. Hunting is a blood sport. I support, even if I don’t participate, any form of legalized hunting. You can’t hunt or use your dogs in some form of hunting and then criticize another breed or hunter for his choice of prey or the use of his dogs in bringing that prey to bay. If that is what we do it won’t be long before the use of dogs in any form of hunting is legislated away. That is what the anti’s have in mind and why they use predators as their poster child to promote their agenda which in reality is to ban all forms of hunting.
I am not going to try and dissuade anyone in their view on big game hunting with dogs but I can’t think of many forms of hunting as physically demanding for both the dogs and the hunters. To characterize the hunt as simply walking up to a tree and dispatching the prey shows a total lack of knowledge of the use of hounds and hunting in general.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 06/04/2010 11:23 AM |
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| Many times the dogs are used to locate the scent of game and track it. Sometimes the games is sighted by humans and the dogs put down to track/chase. Hunting is part conservation and preservation. To non hunters it can appear to be more sport and lust then responsible actions by hunters to maintain for the enviroment. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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boognish
Idaho
MH
Posts:105
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| 06/04/2010 2:24 PM |
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Just my opinion. And just because I use my dogs to hunt upland game, doesn't mean I'm somehow obligated to support all forms of hunting from the crazy hordes of non-hunters trying to ban all hunting. Because that's not going to happen. I believe in the concept of fair chase, and I think that using dogs for bear/lions skews the advantage too much towards the hunter, since their instinct is to climb a tree to get away from the dogs. I also hunt deer and elk, and think that they guys who chase them down on their 4-wheelers, or use long-range weapons to shoot them at 400 yards are pushing the boundaries of ethical hunting. As are people who use bait, who shoot turkeys out of their roosting trees, who shoot waterfowl at rest on the water, etc...
I've used dogs to tree cougar here in Idaho, so we could collar them for research purposes. One of the dogs used was killed by an old tom that turned on him. And yes, we did walk up and shoot them out of their trees...with a tranquilizer gun. These guys all ride around on four-wheelers nowadays, with GPS units to locate their dogs; they're not running through the woods trying to keep up with their pack. I'm sure there are moments of exertion for them, but I have buddies who hunt bear with bows in the woods of Idaho by stalking them, so you'll never convince me that the guys on four wheelers are a rough and tumble bunch. They should stalk their prey themselves, instead of getting their dogs to do the dirty work, IMO.
But, as I said, just an opinion. You keep yours, and I'll keep mine. |
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gatsby
SoCal
SH
Posts:50
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| 06/04/2010 3:19 PM |
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I reiterate I am a proponent of all legalized hunting. I am getting the sense from reading your response that you are for the most part anti hunting? Is it the use of dogs that is objectionable or vehicles or gps units or cougar and bear hunting? Dead is dead whether you hunt bear by spot and stalk, bait or dogs. If I use my GSP for quail and chuker is he doing my “dirty” work? Every time we put our dogs in the field there is an inherent risk factor whether its Texas quail hunting or leopard in Namibia. If the dogs could talk, I would be willing to bet they would take any risk to be in the field. JMO.
PS
Hunting is not fair and has been skewed in favor of the hunter since man developed tools and maybe even before that time. That is why we have tags limits and seasons.
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boognish
Idaho
MH
Posts:105
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| 06/04/2010 4:41 PM |
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Posted By gatsby on 06/04/2010 3:19 PM
I reiterate I am a proponent of all legalized hunting. I am getting the sense from reading your response that you are for the most part anti hunting? Is it the use of dogs that is objectionable or vehicles or gps units or cougar and bear hunting? Dead is dead whether you hunt bear by spot and stalk, bait or dogs. If I use my GSP for quail and chuker is he doing my “dirty” work? Every time we put our dogs in the field there is an inherent risk factor whether its Texas quail hunting or leopard in Namibia. If the dogs could talk, I would be willing to bet they would take any risk to be in the field. JMO.
PS
Hunting is not fair and has been skewed in favor of the hunter since man developed tools and maybe even before that time. That is why we have tags limits and seasons.
Like I said, you have your opinion and I have mine. After reading that I hunt deer, elk and birds, how would you possibly get the impression that I'm anti-hunting? You're right, dead is dead, but we're talking about the ethics of hunting, and that has evolved over time. At the turn of the century, hunters used to bait waterfowl with corn blast them with huge, boat mounted shotguns capable of taking out whole flocks. Surely you wouldn't advocate that, would you? People at the time certainly did. I've been hunting since I was a child, and have had it instilled in me that the animals you're hunting should have a reasonable chance to avoid getting killed. How is piling donuts up day after day for a bear to eat, then sitting in a tree one day and killing it giving it a fair chance? For that matter, how can that even be called hunting? It's just called killing in my book. Most states already ban this practice, so I'm not defending a crazy point of view here.
A bird in the field has a reasonable chance of escape, as you know if you've ever hunted pheasant, quail or chuckar. A cougar in a tree surrounded by 15 dogs doesn't. Simple as that. It's just not an ethical way to take an animal, IMO.
Have a good weekend.
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Terra's Owner
Planet Earth
MH
Posts:262
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| 06/04/2010 4:51 PM |
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As I said early in my post, I don't hunt. I am not against it, I just choose not to. (side note - I only know how to clean fish, not mammels or birds) As a non-hunter, I could really be the devil's advocate against it. On the other hand, responsible hunters play an important role in keeping every last inch of our world from turning into a housing development or strip mall. (National Wildlife Refuges to start with) That would truely be bad for all wildlife.
Gatsby - your first comment was great, I couldn't have said it better myself. Same with Pixie Bee's.
I can't say I like seeing the dead bears or cats. Ferel pigs, however, are not native around here. They can shoot as many of them as they want.
But whether or not I like the hunting methods, I can appreciate the dogs. I don't hunt with my gsp but appreciate the fine dog that he is.
When I read that testmonial about the 10 month old Plott pup on his first (practice) bear hunt, I thought about this discussion on gameness. It seemed to be a good (presumably) true story that was a good example and *not* related to dog fighting. I also think the Pocahontas Plotts are absolutely beautiful dogs. I love the brindle (sic?) coats.
As an owner of both a gsp and a plott(or plott mix, she came from the animal shelter), I see a lot of similarities in both.
1) nice, short hair
2) total mainiacs when hunting
3) great around humans (and from other reports, kids) when not hunting
4) Both developed by Germans, Plotts in America in western NC and east TN and GSPs in Germany.
5) Both have almost infinate coat patterns unless solid color black, buckskin or liver
I suspect that they have some common ancestors but probably way back since the Plott brothers first came to America with their dogs in the late 1700's. I believe that is a good while before gsps were developed.
To compare gsps and plotts to autos, GSPs are like a BMW. Finely engineered, tight, quiet ride, low noise, great performance. (I've never owned a BMW but for as much as they cost, they better be fine automobiles). Based on my dog Jenny, I'd say Plotts are more like a Ford-Chevy-Dodge muscle car from the 1960's or 1970's. Strong, powerful but noisy, rattles and bigger. Not as well engineered. However, when the race is on, they can really turn it on.
And the nose - Jenny can smell anything. It might take her a while but she sniffs
out stuff I don't even know about - like old dog biscuits under the fridge. Jenny is currently a stick fetching maniac. She isn't very good about watching where they go so she has to go and sniff them out. Sometimes I throw them for her at night. I swear she finds them faster in the dark by the smell. She knows what one we are using at the time too. She has lots of sticks laying around. I think she can smell what one I touched last. Also probably the one with the freshest smell of herself.
One day I will get a video of her swimming in the river current after sticks with slinky Bearoff backing her up. Bearoff shadows her when she goes after sticks on land and chases her into the water until it gets chest deep on him. He is a riot.
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John (human), Bearoff (gsp), Jenny (Plott), Sunshine (Heinz57 rip 11/4/2010), Terra (missing but still in my heart) |
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gatsby
SoCal
SH
Posts:50
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| 06/04/2010 6:40 PM |
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Posted By boognish on 06/04/2010 4:41 PM
Posted By gatsby on 06/04/2010 3:19 PM
I reiterate I am a proponent of all legalized hunting. I am getting the sense from reading your response that you are for the most part anti hunting? Is it the use of dogs that is objectionable or vehicles or gps units or cougar and bear hunting? Dead is dead whether you hunt bear by spot and stalk, bait or dogs. If I use my GSP for quail and chuker is he doing my “dirty” work? Every time we put our dogs in the field there is an inherent risk factor whether its Texas quail hunting or leopard in Namibia. If the dogs could talk, I would be willing to bet they would take any risk to be in the field. JMO.
PS
Hunting is not fair and has been skewed in favor of the hunter since man developed tools and maybe even before that time. That is why we have tags limits and seasons.
Like I said, you have your opinion and I have mine. After reading that I hunt deer, elk and birds, how would you possibly get the impression that I'm anti-hunting? You're right, dead is dead, but we're talking about the ethics of hunting, and that has evolved over time. At the turn of the century, hunters used to bait waterfowl with corn blast them with huge, boat mounted shotguns capable of taking out whole flocks. Surely you wouldn't advocate that, would you? People at the time certainly did. I've been hunting since I was a child, and have had it instilled in me that the animals you're hunting should have a reasonable chance to avoid getting killed. How is piling donuts up day after day for a bear to eat, then sitting in a tree one day and killing it giving it a fair chance? For that matter, how can that even be called hunting? It's just called killing in my book. Most states already ban this practice, so I'm not defending a crazy point of view here.
A bird in the field has a reasonable chance of escape, as you know if you've ever hunted pheasant, quail or chuckar. A cougar in a tree surrounded by 15 dogs doesn't. Simple as that. It's just not an ethical way to take an animal, IMO.
Have a good weekend.
I just see huge wholes in your arguments if you in fact are a hunter. Your views seem more anti than pro hunting but it may be the quarry (cougar and bear) you have a problem with I see no difference between hunting cougar with dogs and using dogs for pheasant. You seem to think every time hounds are put to the ground the outcome is certain and that’s not true. Do houndsmen in your area really use 15 hounds on their hunts? I take it that you do use dogs for birds and a shotgun?
Punt guns were used years ago by market hunters who hunted and sold wild game for a living. No one is advocating hunting anything into extinction. That’s why hunting is now regulated.
I hunt and I am not willing to point my finger at other legal hunters and say “Do it my way!”
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zodiakgsps
NW PA
MH
Posts:1059
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| 06/04/2010 7:34 PM |
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Easy now guys. While different types of hunting may not appeal to everyone, but we as hunters must stick together in this day and age or face losing our right altogether, this is not just a possibility, but a probability.
Whether we hunt deer with rifle, ML, X-bow or compound(and believe me, there is great dissention amongst X-bow and compound users!), upland birds or waterfowl or chase hog, coon or cat with hounds, those who do what they do love it just as much as the next guy loves "his" sport & no one wants to have it taken away.
As to the original subject of prey drive, gameness or hardness, I believe they are pretty much what one terms it to the dog, I consider my guys hard in that they will hunt in high temps until they drop, literally, so to a degree, it is ones view I guess. |
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