A friend of mine and I have been having a discussion through several emails this week regarding the GSP and gameness. We have found that we both have differnt views of what gameness means and if it is necisarry for our GSP breed to still have a natural gameness to them.

I should start out by expressing what I view gameness as (right, wrong or otherwise). I feel that a GSP that shows gameness is one that shows the disire to go after birds along with furred animals such as squirls, chipmunks, mice etc. I use small furred animals as example as we don't have much as far as larger furred animals here where I live that we can see gameness on with out GSP's.

I personally feel that it is important to have the GSP continue to have some gameness to them. I feel if we try to breed GSP away from having a natural gameness we are no better than those who breed only for show or only for field as I feel our GSP's should be the "whole package".

What I found when talking with my friend is that they viewed what gameness was as being so diehard in the pursuit of a furred animal that they will fight it til the death no matter how much that furred animal may be hurting the GSP. I feel that fighting the other animal to the death is more the drive of the dog not necisarily the gameness of the dog.

So what are other's thoughts? I really have enjoyed talking with my friend about this and learning their point of view and I feel it really has deepend my understanding and passion for a true versatile GSP.

And also do you feel we should be testing GSP's for gameness as well as the upland birds and water work for ducks and waterfowl in programs such as NAVHDA?

I do agree. The gameness is what one desires in a hunting dog. That natural desire to find game is the whole reason for breeding them that way.  I have met a few game dogs that have little desire beyond chasing a tennisball, and eating.  I guess if you want a dog without some gameness that is why God created the shitzu.  If you have a dog consistantly killing game I think that is a training/discipline problem, and needs a little nurturing. I have fallen in love with my little GSP because I can see she has the drive and desire for game.  That is what I wanted in a dog.

As i think about it....If the dog could kill and bring you rabbits or what ever....that saves on ammunition!  You know it is rather pricey, and we are in a ression and all!

I will second that...

Moose1,
when your friend says:
as being so diehard in the pursuit of a furred animal that they will fight it til the death no matter how much that furred animal may be hurting the GSP.

it is my opinion your friend is not talking about gameness.

Gameness, to me, is when scent is made and a dog begins the active search to locate it.

Now, anything associated with gameness, IMO, is then evaluated by drive. I am BIG into drives.

The DKs do not have a live fur track, the DDs have one in their puppy test. I would like to see this in the DK puppy test. A DK will recieve a mark next to their name if they show a quality live rabbit track,tho.

I would not expect my dogs to attack large game and I don't think they would. Actively engage it until the hunter gets there to shoot it,yes. One reason there is a loudness test.

NAVHDA comes close to DK testing. It is based off of the German system.The only way to do DK testing is to get a DK.

There was a mention of mental stability. This is bred for, not a given. Testing is not a guarentee of it,either.

Francine

I made the above post, but then I started to wonder more about where the statement may have originated about fighting to the death,so I googled a little and found stuff like this:

http://stason.org/TULARC/animals/dogs/american-pit-bull-terriers-breed/12-What-exactly-is-gameness.html

Shorthairs are not bred to take down large game, fight or be human aggressive. What is called gameness, in this article, is what most call hardness. It is not related to human aggression - it is a separate part of the brain. Shorthairs were bred to dispatch predators who eat game humans hunt- fox,coons,feril cats,etc., to find and actively engage large game - boar,bear-until a hunter arrives, to have a soft mouth - a shorthair should not,on a regular basis, shake to death a duck,rabbit,game birds,etc. I have found that the dogs somehow know which animals we eat and which do the eating - and treat them accordingly. They were bred to stand up to dangerous animals. So, we have hardness  (which is being called gameness) and boldness. Then we have drive - the drive will determine how long the dog engages in an activity, then there is the threshold for the drive which determines how easily the drive is triggered.

When I think of gameness, I think of terriers, pittbulls in particular. Their "gameness" is judged on their ability to maintain a ferocious attack on whatever animal they are baiting, regardless of the amount of damage that animal is inflicting upon the dog.

I know that smaller, rodent killing terriers used to be given a gameness test, where they would have to engage a badger for five full minutes, without losing contact, or they wouldn't qualify as being a breeding quality dog.

Sounds to me like that was what your friend was referring to in his definition of gameness. I've never heard the term associated with breeds like the GSP before.

double

double post

I have been reading this discussion with interest. I don't hunt and I certainly don't fight dogs so I don't have any first hand experience.
But is this testamonial what is considered "gameness" ?
http://www.pocahontasplotts.com/testimonials.htm
read the first testamonial by the guy from NH.
You might also want to read the testamonial at the bottom of the first cougar hunting page:
http://www.pocahontasplotts.com/cats.htm


This is also one of my favorite dog related websites. Mr Walker has produced some beautiful dogs that apparently excel at hunting. Lots of good photos. If you look through his photos, look at the deceased dog photos. On page 6, check out the former dog Jezabel. She used to be on the female dog page. On page 5, Ginger used to be on the female page too. I wonder what happened to them?
On the male dogs at stud page, first photo, check out Dakota. I think he is part tiger.
 

Life is to short - I want to have a small pack of gsps and a small pack of plotts. Probably not at the same time though.

Hopefully the links came out and work.