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everbell
Kanata, ON
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Posts:3162
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| 04/29/2010 12:56 PM |
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Reminds me of a situation that happened to me last weekend at the dog park. This golden retriever came running at Bo with his teeth bared and growling from about 100 yards away. He jumped Bo aggressively before I could even open my mouth. Since Bo is more nimble than the average dog, he managed to get himself untangled.
When I called the owner on it he said "what are you talking about? You're at a dog park, what do you expect? And by the way, your dog's mouth was open" basically insinuating: 1. whatever happens at a dog park is ok; 2. that Bo was the aggressor since his mouth was open (I guess the fact that it was a warm morning and he had been chasing his ball for half hour had nothing to do with that).
When I asked my friend who was walking with me, she said the retriever went straight AT Bo, not a passing howdoyado. Plus the owner was wearing his ipod and totally not paying attention to his dog running ahead.
So even though Bo did nothing to provoke the attack, he got attacked. Sometimes you just can't count on the other dog being well-balanced, even if yours' is.
I'm not saying that you don't need to work on the aggression your dog is showing, just that every aggressive incident, may not be started by him. |
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Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 04/29/2010 1:10 PM |
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We don't go to dog parks anymore and we are careful which dogs we stop and talk to. Owners really,really don't give a darn - they believe this is what it's like to be a dog. There's an intact GSD who lunges at my dogs,growling,barking -and all they keep telling me is "he was an abused dog"- well, you know what? I don't care - keep him away from my dogs or I'm making a phone call. The son and mother are considerate but the father is a bit arrogant and I believe he enjoys his dog's behavior -BTW, they are the only owners of the dog - which means they abused him??? I haven't quite figured it out yet but it's quite a statement,don't you think?I don't think he was abused - I think he's unstable.
It's best not to have doggie friends. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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boognish
Idaho
MH
Posts:105
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| 04/29/2010 3:03 PM |
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Posted By Texas Belle on 04/29/2010 12:14 PM
boognish - You are applying human emotions to the dogs situation (or various situations). Dogs live in and for the moment. They are typically happy where they are at any given point in time. My boy loves to hunt birds, but obviously can't do that all day long. He is equally happy hanging out in the yard and chasing squirrels, or laying on the sofa while we watch a movie. Dogs have certain needs (exercise, food, place to sleep) and if those are met can and will be perfectly happy in whatever environment they find themselves in at any given moment.
I don't know that I'm applying human emotions to dogs. They are pack animals naturally, so it just makes sense that they'd be in a more natural environment around a pack of dogs all day. Dogs are adaptable, and most will be just fine living alone with a family (their pack), but it's definitely not their natural environment, and you'll never convince me that a dog who is crated up for 8-10 hours a day while their owner is at work is as content as a dog who walks freely around the neighborhood.
And these aren't dangerous, feral dogs down here on the Rez. They wander around freely, getting petted by the kids that are running around everywhere. It reminds me a lot of the small villages I went to in Mexico, where nobody would even think about locking their dog up during the day, instead letting them roam around, checking out the world. Just different cultures. |
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pixie bee
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Posts:4448
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| 04/29/2010 3:12 PM |
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Well, I'm crated more then 8-10 hours and I live longer then a dog. Humans were originally roamers and our natural environment is nature. Humans adapted very well to society (I think) and dogs adapt very well also. To say they'd be happier roaming,I'd be happier too if I could do what I wanted,when I wanted,how I wanted.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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boognish
Idaho
MH
Posts:105
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| 04/29/2010 3:24 PM |
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Posted By pixie bee on 04/29/2010 3:12 PM
Well, I'm crated more then 8-10 hours and I live longer then a dog. Humans were originally roamers and our natural environment is nature. Humans adapted very well to society (I think) and dogs adapt very well also. To say they'd be happier roaming,I'd be happier too if I could do what I wanted,when I wanted,how I wanted.
Amen to that. 
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jagermeister
Seattle, WA
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Posts:106
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| 04/29/2010 4:06 PM |
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I agree that not being fixed may cause some issues but he is not going to be fixed so I need thoughts training but I really can't train my dog to stop getting other dogs from being agressive towards him because he has not made eye contact and does not usually know they are even coming and when he does he does not do any aggressive posturing. Trust I know what to look for as far as signs and subtle things and he isn't doing it.
what usually happens is me and my dog are off by ourselves, I try to avoid other people and dogs at all times, he is usually just sniffing the ground like huntings dogs do, I am scanning the horizon and not in a passive or scared manner, my dog at this point has his nose to the ground and has not made eye contact with anything, I will see a dog coming from 50 to 100 yards off towards us showing defensive or aggressive behavior, my dog still is sniffing the ground and has no idea the other dog is coming, I have been martial arts trained and combat fighting trained which involved fighting a dog as well, i know how to seriously mame a dog so I am sure I am not showing any fear and am sure I am not fearful cause I am telling myself if this dog messes with my dog it is going to get a little something from me. the dog will run up to my dog and they will stand side by side, head to tail, then the hair goes up, the teeth show and boom they are at it. this is how it happens sometimes, other times the dog just comes running over with it's hair up and teeth bared before my dog has seen it and when he does he puts his hair up and shows his teeth and they fight. My dog has never ever approached another dog, I have taught him to avoid other dogs and he does it. they always come to him. mostly when he has not even made eye contact or seen them coming.
I will check out that book about aggressive behavior and hope I can learn something that will help us and thank you for the suggestion and recomendation. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7835
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| 04/29/2010 4:30 PM |
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| jagermeister - Hopefully something in the book will resonate. It is very hard to know what is going on for sure without being able to see the interaction. My best suggestion is to avoid the other dogs when you can. If you see one, don't wait until they are up to you, move the other direction as soon as you see them. Personally, I hate when dogs are off leash that have no manners, but there are just some inconsiderate owners. I have a couple in my neighborhood and their dogs are like the neighborhood bullies. I think it is the fault of the owner for not giving them a comfortable position in their own pack. The worst in my neighborhood is a little West Highland Terrier that will go out of his way to pick on my dogs. Thankfully so far my dogs have ignored him. But one time I fussed at the dog and the neighbor heard me and came running up to me yelling don't hurt my dog. I told him I had no intentions of hurting his dog, but reminded him that there was a leash law and his dog was off leash and on my property. He kept yelling at me, something about my dogs hurting his dog and picked his dog up and left. At the time the only dog out was my oldest girl. She could have taken that dog down in one motion, but she was just sitting there looking at his dog. In hind sit the scenario was pretty funny, but it was also very frustrating because what it means is I always have to be careful when I have my dogs out in the front yard. I don't worry that they will leave the yard because they don't, but I have no control over what comes into my yard. I really do hate irresponsible dog owners. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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boognish
Idaho
MH
Posts:105
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| 04/29/2010 4:31 PM |
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You can't do anything about strange dogs running up and attacking yours. Sorry. I'd start carrying a walking stick on your walks and let the approaching dog know, in no uncertain terms, that he'd best not get within range of that stick. Give him a poke if you need to. Dogs aren't that bright, but most aren't dumb enough to get within range of an aggressive looking human brandishing a stick. |
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dieterthegsp
Cape Breton, NS, Canada
MH
Posts:559
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| 04/29/2010 4:45 PM |
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Posted By jagermeister on 04/29/2010 4:06 PM
I agree that not being fixed may cause some issues but he is not going to be fixed so I need thoughts training but I really can't train my dog to stop getting other dogs from being agressive towards him because he has not made eye contact and does not usually know they are even coming and when he does he does not do any aggressive posturing. Trust I know what to look for as far as signs and subtle things and he isn't doing it.
what usually happens is me and my dog are off by ourselves, I try to avoid other people and dogs at all times, he is usually just sniffing the ground like huntings dogs do, I am scanning the horizon and not in a passive or scared manner, my dog at this point has his nose to the ground and has not made eye contact with anything, I will see a dog coming from 50 to 100 yards off towards us showing defensive or aggressive behavior, my dog still is sniffing the ground and has no idea the other dog is coming, I have been martial arts trained and combat fighting trained which involved fighting a dog as well, i know how to seriously mame a dog so I am sure I am not showing any fear and am sure I am not fearful cause I am telling myself if this dog messes with my dog it is going to get a little something from me. the dog will run up to my dog and they will stand side by side, head to tail, then the hair goes up, the teeth show and boom they are at it. this is how it happens sometimes, other times the dog just comes running over with it's hair up and teeth bared before my dog has seen it and when he does he puts his hair up and shows his teeth and they fight. My dog has never ever approached another dog, I have taught him to avoid other dogs and he does it. they always come to him. mostly when he has not even made eye contact or seen them coming.
I will check out that book about aggressive behavior and hope I can learn something that will help us and thank you for the suggestion and recomendation.
It seems to me that you are just having really bad luck running into agressive dogs.
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2721
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MelB
MH
Posts:1217
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| 04/29/2010 5:54 PM |
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I do not walk my dog in my own neighborhood for that very reason. Dogs come out of nowhere and ambush the ones on leash. Leash laws are not enforced here well at all and so most people simply open the door and expect their dog to stay in it's yard, which of course they don't because they have absolutely zero training to do so. They haven't been properly socialized and therefore they are menaces now.
I refuse to allow my dog(s) to be their victims. I try to socialize my dogs so they DO NOT get like this, if I allow them to be attacked repeatedly then I, myself, have failed them as their owner and protector.
My suggestion is to find an area elsewhere where it is safer to walk your dog, or begin carrying pepper spray or a very large baseball bat. Trust me, let another owner see you carrying a bat and I bet they watch real close where there dog is in relationship to you and yours. Everyone around here walks with them, with or without a dog, because of the number of roaming dogs we have that aren't friendly. |
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2721
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| 04/29/2010 6:12 PM |
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Melbe, My little Mid west town has zero tolerance for loose agrressive dogs off leash who are not socialized. They soon get picked up and taken to the dog catcher for proper placement. Also going to a dog park is not the best place to be trying to socialize your dog in the proper manner. Safer to be in a dog training class or planned social doggy play time with well balanced dogs of friends who you know. |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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everbell
Kanata, ON
MH
Posts:3162
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| 04/30/2010 5:18 AM |
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I agree. Although we do meet some nice dogs at the dog park, there do seem to be a lot of unbalanced dogs and owners there. Our park is big enough that if you actually walk out into the forest far enough, you tend to meet only the dogs/owners who are serious about socializing their dogs.
It's the one who come, park themselves at the entrance to the dog park and sit on their butts while their dogs run hither and yon that really worry me. Their dogs start to "own" the front area and the owners think it's funny to wath them protect the area.
We tend to go early enough in the morning that we can avoid most of these situations -- the park is beautiful and large (an old sand quarry) with lots of nice wooded trails -- so I hate to deny Bo because of a few bad apples.
We haven't been taking Raz there lately because of the other bad owner problem -- not picking up after their dogs. Since Razzie is a poop-eater, and currently preggers, we really don't want her feasting on that. When she gets back from the breeders, we will try taking her with a muzzle on and see how that goes ... |
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Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures |
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jlp8cornell
Ithaca NY
MH
Posts:461
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| 04/30/2010 7:02 AM |
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Inconsiderate owner story---I took my guys into PetSmart to pick up something a while ago. They are both expected to stay in heel position and behave. A woman let her German Shepherd pull her over to my guys. I immediately stepped in front of my 2 who were on a sit stay and said something to her. She said " Oh, are your dogs not friendly?". I replied, "Yes, they are very friendly. But...they are not rude!". She quickly turned and stomped off.
At home, my guys are always in their fence, on walks in public on leash and only allowed to run on land that I can see any approaching dog 1/4 mile away. Even still, I carry pepper spray in my pocket. I wouldn't ever think of going to a dog park. Too many people with no control and care free attitudes. My dogs are well socialized and this comes mainly from obedience classes 2x/week, outings with my everywhere, NAVHDA training, etc. |
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Jen
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2440 |
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3130
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| 04/30/2010 8:19 AM |
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I totally agree with even having friendly dogs obey proper etiquette. Even if my dog is friendly I don't allow it to drag me over to someone elses dog. I know my two are very friendly so if we are somewhere and there is another dog (on leash with owner) and I think that dog is showing signs of friendliness I will ask the owner if it is ok for the dogs to say hi.
I like using the sit stay when looking at stuff in the pet store. Since mine are so young it is a challenge but it is one I am working on! |
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jagermeister
Seattle, WA
MH
Posts:106
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| 04/30/2010 12:37 PM |
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I do not generally take my boy to the dog parks just because a lot of people have untrained dogs and they feel what ever happens happens. they don't pay attention to their dogs when they are there and their dogs are crapping and being aggressive but the owner is either reading, socializing or generally just not paying attention.
When I do take my dog to a dog park it is one near me that is huge, probably at least a square mile or two. it has great manacured trails convered in red cedar, woods, fields, and 4 access areas to water for swimming and even a clean up station.
The reason I go here is cause I can keep him away from the other dogs cause it is so big.
I have not taken him there for a while though because we will still get idiot owners who cause us problems. One time a woman's dog (he was much smaller than my 78 lbs shorthair) came over and started to hump on my boys head, the woman just giggled and I told her my dog will not put up with that and very shortly he will strike back, she just said oh well then my dog deserves it. sure enough in about 20 seconds of having his face humped my boy really went after this dog, biting and chasing him into submission, the other dog was squeeliing and crying and the woman just said "don't worry he deserved it"
the next time we were there a woman had a very big dog, had a head like a pitbul and weighed at least 90 to 100lbs, he was one of the ones that just came charging at my dog from at least 100 yards away, my dog was facing away, squating to do his business. The other male ran right up to my dog as he was finishing and got aggressive, my boy did not back down and then they were both showing teeth and growling, I told the other woman, who was still 60 yards away and casually walking towards us as she called her dog's name, to get her dog outta here and away from my dog, and she just kept casually calling his name, then they were fighting and have to say my dog was getting the best of her dog, she finally gets up to us and we seperate the dogs and she says " wow you are lucky, usually my dog rips out pieces of other dogs and I can't believe your dog stood up to him cause he would have gotten tore up" CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT? what a response, she lets her dog attack another dog and then tells me I am lucky that her dog didn't rip my dog up!!
so any way dogs parks are avoided because a lot of people have no idea about dogs or how to train them and if you ask me they should not even own dogs to begin with. |
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boognish
Idaho
MH
Posts:105
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| 04/30/2010 1:52 PM |
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Posted By jagermeister on 04/30/2010 12:37 PM
CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT? what a response, she lets her dog attack another dog and then tells me I am lucky that her dog didn't rip my dog up!!
so any way dogs parks are avoided because a lot of people have no idea about dogs or how to train them and if you ask me they should not even own dogs to begin with.
I've never been to a dog park, but they sound like a lawyer's dream. Do you have to sign a waiver that you won't sue someone if their dog attacks and injures your dog? Sitting around a dog park waiting for a scuffle sounds better than chasing ambulances 
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boognish
Idaho
MH
Posts:105
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| 05/24/2010 4:14 PM |
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Well, I've been working with Jasper on his "issue" and he seems to be making progress. When I introduce him to a new dog, I do it in a controlled environment and give him an immediate correction the moment he begins to growl or act aggressive. I basically just grab his muzzle with one hand and his collar with the other and let him know, in no uncertain terms, that he's being a bad dog. Just yesterday, after about 20 minutes of correction, he was playing with four other dogs in a back yard, drinking out of the same container as them, and letting them sniff his privates with no problems.
Persistence is beginning to pay off.  |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 05/24/2010 4:56 PM |
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Very good.
Many times what happens is an unsocialized dog will have issues upon the initial greeting, but once that is out of the way the dog is accepting. This is good. Work on the greeting and you got it. Also, many times it's really not aggresion. It's excitment,turned to frustration,turned to redirected energy that appears like aggression.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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been far east
MH
Posts:293
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| 05/24/2010 7:05 PM |
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| I DONT LIKE DOG PARKS .To many people untrained to handle their own dog .I went to ours a few times and had the same (humping thing )happen to my male. If its a few dogs iits not to bad but when you have 40 dogs all running and more coming in the mix its a mess . We now have cameras on the park so people who dont control their dogs and let them attack others are band and fined. Its better now ,but still i enjoy the dog class fellowship better . Keep up the pack leader training ,it works. Glad to hear things are getting better .(been far east ) |
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