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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3154
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| 04/28/2010 8:11 AM |
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| That is good your friend has a well mannered dog to help you out with. I think if both dogs had attitudes it wouldn't work, so it is great you have someone and another dog to work with. When I watched that show it said the aggressive dog walks behind the other dog, that way it sees it and I think something about the back end of the other dog is less intimidating. I think it will take quite a bit of time for them to just play, but with work hopefully it will happen. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4475
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| 04/28/2010 8:26 AM |
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I think you may be missing a valid point. It's not whether or not another dog will initiate - it's what will happen when your dog initiates. Few dogs,especially intact males, will let another dog push them around. Your dog displays dominant behaviors other dogs are not willing to accept. Learn to read the signs and stop your dog's signals at first warning - there is ALWAYS a warning. Your dog is dispalying these signal b/c you allow it. You may not intend to. Dogs can build a thick skin and learn to disregard corrections - even strong corrections. Since you are dealing with aggressive dominance you have your work cut out for you. I know how strong willed a dominant dog can be, adding aggression to the mix would be a nightmare.
Best of luck and workon obedience 100% - make sure your son and wife are obeyed equally as you. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Terra's Owner
Planet Earth
MH
Posts:262
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| 04/28/2010 11:03 AM |
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On neutering, for what it is worth, this article says that (presumably early) neutering actually seems to cause male dogs to be more aggressive.
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
See the paragraph on Behavioural Considerations. Footnote 12 is referenced.
I'm not arguing one way or the other, I'm just a dog owner who tries to make sense out of all the info I come across on dogs. I noticed this as it seems to contridict common knowledge.
There are also other considerations besides behaviour - health and overpopulation are two.
We just had a sad situation in Charlotte at one of the dog parks where an intact male mastiff killed a small dog. There seemed to be a common opinion that intact male dogs were all vicious killers. The incident is a longer story....
I will bet that the agression towards other dogs has something to do with your young (toddler?) son starting to walk around. Don't non-alpha wolves help raise the young? Seems like I saw/read that somewhere. Maybe your male gsp doesn't have a dominance problem, just trying to help raise and look after a younger pack member?
Looking at the Leerburg site makes me afraid to even own a dog. They are all vicious killers. Although I think his methods work and I have likely used them before being aware of Leerburg. He seems to be a more extreme version of the woman from the UK who wrote a good book on being the pack leader. I can't remember her name or the book as I let my sister borrow it and she hasn't returned it. It has been a while.
Remember, I'm not a real expert, I have a masters degree in cleaning up hairballs. (for all you Dr Science fans)
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John (human), Bearoff (gsp), Jenny (Plott), Sunshine (Heinz57 rip 11/4/2010), Terra (missing but still in my heart) |
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jagermeister
Seattle, WA
MH
Posts:106
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| 04/28/2010 11:44 AM |
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My male shorthair is 2 yrs 3 months old and has been exhibiting similar behavior, At first i thought it was from trauma he received at the day care I took him to when he was between 5 months and 1 year old. he was attacked constantly at this day care which I found out was not monitoring the dogs very well. In the last two weeks that he was there he came home with over 16 complete puncture wounds around his neck, So yes I took him outta there. then for the next 6 months up to 1 and a half years old he was fine around other dogs, we go for walks around the neighborhood, go to dog parks etc.
For the past 4 months he has been mixing it up with some males but not all of them. He does not initiate it though. We will be at a huge dog park and he will be "doing his business, squating" and other male dogs that are 50 to 75 yards away will just come charging towards him with their hair up and growling. He does not back down and then a fight starts, I use a correction collar and often he is on a leash and the corrections don't stop him from fighting back. When we go for walks in the area he just ignores other dogs but if they come up to him and they are male (but not all males) his hair will go up and he will growl. With any and every female he is fine and it seems all females want to dance and play chase with him. Like I said he never went after other males or showed aggression towards them but if they come over to him and get in his space he gets aggressive.
Originally I thought that he had fear from the past of being attacked so he was not going to tolerate it but it is getting worse. Lately it seems that any male dog that comes near him he will raise his shackles and growl. But not with all males and he only does it if they come up to within a few feet of him and start with their posturing. I do aggressively correct him but to no avail. I am starting to think I should do the Cesar Milan thing and throw him on his back when this happens but even if I do pull him away from the males they will bite at his behind. It seems that other male dogs are going way out of their way to come over to my dog with their shackles up and growling then my dog responds and won't back down.
My dog is not fixed and he will not be getting fixed. I have done a lot of research on this and it seems the only reason anyone has come up with for fixing them (other than preventing pregnancy) is to prevent testicular cancer but I will never believe that we should start removing organs just to prevent cancer. What if we did that with humans, remove every organ that may get cancer? In my research I have also found that fixed dogs get fat and lazy, and they actually do get more aggressive. It is all the fixed dogs that want to come over and pick a fight with my dog. Even when I was a kid people would always say that fixed males get really aggressive when they get older. And like one of the other posters said that with their research found the same thing.
My dog does not chase other males aggressively but they do it to him, he ignores other dogs mostly until they come right up to him and start with their posturing and he does not like it and retaliates. So I still can't tell if my dog has issues or if he just won't tolerate alpha, aggressive males coming up to him with their hair up and postering at him. I used to believe that the other dogs did this cause my dog was submissive and the alpha dogs were messing with him because of that but now my dog is posturing and his hair is up when any male approaches him, Oddly though when we are at one dog park that is much smaller he will run and play with the other dogs with no problem.
I have also found in my animal behavior research that the alpha males of most species are not the aggressors and hormone studies have shown them to be more relaxed than all the other animals in the pack. It is the Beta males that are the problem, they want to be alpha and they need to establish their place in the pack so it is the Beta males that are always acting out and being aggressive. So is my dog a Beta dog? Is he percieved by other males as Alpha and they want to take that away from him?
At this point I just don't know the real reasons behind the behavior of my dog or why other males are alwasy gong after him but I need to do something before a fight breaks out and someones dog gets taken away. I really don't think any human can claim to be a dog psychologist or even know what goes on in their heads no matter what kind of experience they have with dogs or how many they have had or been around. I agree we can see patterns and make assumptions based on that but there seem to be so many opinions as to what makes dogs to what they do it is hard to go with any one of them.
So does any one have any opinions on what may be happening with my dog and what I should do?
thanks |
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jagermeister
Seattle, WA
MH
Posts:106
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| 04/28/2010 12:11 PM |
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I read the Leesburg site and I honestly have done most of the things he suggests, i never let people bring their dog over to say "hi" I stand between him and other dogs, I have taught him to be aloof from people and other dogs. I have done all the things I have read about showing my dog that I am the Alpha and even try to keep him from marking territory telling him that is my job except I can't really start marking myself in public for obvious reasons. he listens to me pretty much at all times, he does sleep in my bed and someone suggested I don't let him do that.
It does seem to me that it's the other males that come at my dog and that my dog does not ever show any of the classic dominant behaviors. But lately he is showing the aggressive attitude first now to other males dogs that come near him |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7922
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| 04/28/2010 4:14 PM |
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| Aggression in dogs is a complex problem and not easily solved. You also have to be careful as you may end up getting hurt or making the problem worse. For those interested there is a very good book with good suggestions with how to deal with various types of aggression. The book is "Aggression in Dogs" by Brenda Aloff. I would recommend you get it and read it prior to choosing any course of action. Even if you end up using a trainer having the knowledge will allow you to ask good questions and understand any training recommendations. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3154
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| 04/28/2010 4:31 PM |
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pixir bee,
I wasn't saying that by having a well mannered dog that the aggressive dog's behavior will change because the other dog didn't initiate, just that it will make it easier to control the aggressive dog. I agree that the aggressive signs need to be recognized and handled so that they don't escalate. I also agree that there are probably signs that aren't being noticed so that the proper corrections have not been made, so I hope they can get recognized, so that hopefully the entire situation can be taken care of |
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boognish
Idaho
MH
Posts:105
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| 04/28/2010 4:48 PM |
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Posted By pixie bee on 04/28/2010 8:26 AM
I think you may be missing a valid point. It's not whether or not another dog will initiate - it's what will happen when your dog initiates. Few dogs,especially intact males, will let another dog push them around. Your dog displays dominant behaviors other dogs are not willing to accept. Learn to read the signs and stop your dog's signals at first warning - there is ALWAYS a warning. Your dog is dispalying these signal b/c you allow it. You may not intend to. Dogs can build a thick skin and learn to disregard corrections - even strong corrections. Since you are dealing with aggressive dominance you have your work cut out for you. I know how strong willed a dominant dog can be, adding aggression to the mix would be a nightmare.
Best of luck and workon obedience 100% - make sure your son and wife are obeyed equally as you.
It's tough, because there's a fine line between general posturing, sniffing, etc... when two strange dogs meet, and a fight. I've seen the same "tense" moment between two dogs that first meet break suddenly into play, or break suddenly into a scuffle. By the time their hackles are up, it's usually too late to stop it.
When my dog was biting at the Great Pirenese last weekend, he was running in circles around our back yard like he was playing (or nuts), but then he'd come in fast for a "drive by" and end up with a mouthful of white fur. Then he'd take off again and do some laps. Not really dominant type behavior, but he didn't act fearful eaither. It was a strange episode.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4475
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| 04/28/2010 6:31 PM |
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splat,
my post wasn't in response to yours.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7922
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| 04/28/2010 8:16 PM |
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Another good book I would recommend would be "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell, PhD. Both books look at dog behavior and if your dog is aggressive or you think your dog might be aggressive they will give things to watch for. There are very obvious signals to watch for with aggression vs play, how the dogs look at each other, how they approach each other, facial expressions, etc. All or even one are good signals to step in before your dog gets into a tussle. Don't wait until you have a problem, anticipate (watch for the signals) and prevent. Until you have a good idea of what to watch for with the dog's body language and posturing I would not put your dog with another dog, not even a friendly one. I would also work on focus exercises and get your dog paying attention to you so you have a way of refocusing your dog in any situation. Finally, I would have a broom or something similar handy to use in case I did need to break up a couple of dogs. Finally, be sure you know how to separate dogs that are fighting (grab the dogs back legs and pull them apart). Too many people are seriously bitten because they walk in and try to separate a pair of fighting dogs. Even small dogs can do serious damage.
As you said, by the time the hackles are up it is too late. I will guarantee you though, that there were signals prior to the hackles if you know what to look for in the two dogs behavior.
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3154
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| 04/29/2010 6:15 AM |
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OK good 
That is weird that he ran circles and then would sneak a bite and then run some more. My boxer would just attack with growls and lunges towards the other dogs, she was always on a leash when this happened so I never allowed contact....I'm sure if I had she would not of just bit and than ran around. That was when she was a puppy. I eventually got her to the point where she would ignore other dogs while on a leash cuz I could take her to the pet stores and she would mind her own business but she could not do any social sniffing. Basically all I did was teach her to pay attention to me and any time she even started to ignore me I corrected her. She was never to the point where she could play with other dogs...though she was fine with my parents dogs, but she grew up with them. Then when she was old the neighbors got a blue healer like me parent's dog and low and behold she played with it! |
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boognish
Idaho
MH
Posts:105
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| 04/29/2010 7:23 AM |
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Yeah, it was strange. The incident did happen in our back yard, so I'm sure that territorialism was a factor in it as well.
Nothing to do but start the socializing process again with him. |
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jagermeister
Seattle, WA
MH
Posts:106
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| 04/29/2010 11:23 AM |
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I don't think I am having the same problem as the others here but still at a loss on how to train him about it or why it is happening. I have a copy of "The Other End of the Leash" and have read it and it has helped me with a lot of things. The problem here is that as soon as i see another dog and usually long before my dog has seen it, I start to watch my dog's behavior to see how he is going to react. 9 out of 10 times he just ignores the other dog. I have had other males see my dog from a long way off and my dog still does not know they are there yet and the other male will just come charging at my dog sometimes from 50, 75 or more yards away, it will have it's hackles up while he is heading for my dog. Then as soon as he gets close and my dog notices him he will then react and put up his hackles and show his teeth. I cannot figure out why other male dogs that are so far away from my dog just drop what they are doing and head straight for my dog. This happens when my dog is just going about his business and does not even know the other male is there yet. this has been going on for about 4 months now. But another problem is surfacing where my dog is demonstrating some aggression as well. The other day someone had a male puppy come up to my dog and start rolling around on the ground, wagging his tail and trying to get my boy to play, my boy put up his hackles and started to show his teeth. I thought it might be a territory thing cause we were next to my house where my boy goes to the bathroom but I really have no idea. There are other male dogs in my area that he just walks by or plays with and there is no problem. With females they always want his attention and want to play and dance in front of him and he is fine. Some local people say when they are walking their females dogs their gals always stop in front of my house and won't let them walk any further with them. Females love my boy but males hate him. My dog will not have any idea another male is near and the other male will just charge towards my dog showing signs of aggression.
Any ideas?
Pixie bee have you seen this before?
Texas Belle have you seen this?
I need help with this |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4475
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| 04/29/2010 11:25 AM |
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Running in circles is a pack behavior - looking for the weakness by circling,finding it then moving in. It's classic behavior. He is basically a sniper dog.
I would have the dog sit or lay down and not allow for him to divise an attack.
Dogs don't have to have free roaming priviledges.Mine don't.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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boognish
Idaho
MH
Posts:105
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| 04/29/2010 12:00 PM |
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Posted By pixie bee on 04/29/2010 11:25 AM
Running in circles is a pack behavior - looking for the weakness by circling,finding it then moving in. It's classic behavior. He is basically a sniper dog.
I would have the dog sit or lay down and not allow for him to divise an attack.
Dogs don't have to have free roaming priviledges.Mine don't.
It was a surprise visit by my friend. next time I'll definitely put him on a leash and/or make him lay down.
The free roaming priviledges brings up an interesting question though. I work on an Indian Reservation and nobody down here ties their dogs up or puts them on a leash. They roam freely throughout the community, and there are a ton of stray dogs walking around, but I never see or hear of any dog fights. Where your dogs have no free roaming privileges, the dogs down here have no restrictions on travel whatsoever.
Letting dogs roam in most communities wouldn't work, obviously, because they'd get picked up by dog catchers or run over most likely, but I have to wonder if it isn't better for their mental health to be able to meet and greet other dogs, and investigate things all day, instead of being cooped up in a kennel or back yard while their owner is at work (which is how most of our dogs probably live).
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boognish
Idaho
MH
Posts:105
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| 04/29/2010 12:12 PM |
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Jager, intact males often cause this reaction in other male dogs. Maybe you should follow the advice of that book peddling dog trainer and start carrying some pepper spray to blast strange dogs with. I know that if I saw a full grown dog running at me as fast as he could from 50 yards away with its hackles up, it would be meeting the bottom of my boot before it ever had a chance to come into contact with my dog.
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7922
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| 04/29/2010 12:14 PM |
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| boognish - You are applying human emotions to the dogs situation (or various situations). Dogs live in and for the moment. They are typically happy where they are at any given point in time. My boy loves to hunt birds, but obviously can't do that all day long. He is equally happy hanging out in the yard and chasing squirrels, or laying on the sofa while we watch a movie. Dogs have certain needs (exercise, food, place to sleep) and if those are met can and will be perfectly happy in whatever environment they find themselves in at any given moment. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7922
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| 04/29/2010 12:39 PM |
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jagermeister - So, the first thing to understand is the hackles (piloerector reflex) is a defensive behavior and not an offensive behavior as most believe. The confusing part is you see the reaction in aggressive scenarios (but remember the dogs are defending themselves and their space in those scenarios no matter who started the fight). So, my best guess is you and your dog in particular have crossed into what the other dog sees as his territory and he approaches most likely in a defensive neutral posture. I suspect you are also nervous and signalling that to your dog. There are other indicators to be watching for with the face, ears, mouth, tail that are also signals as to what is going on, but the one surefire one is if the other dog is approaching from the front and making strong eye contact with your dog, immediately distract your dog and move away because the scenario is explosive. If the dogs are approaching from the side, the encounter will likely be fine. My girls are more tolerant of approaching dogs, but my young intact male is ready to rumble it the other dog shows assertiveness and makes strong eye contact. He is also more ready to protect me and what he perceives as his turf. So, I work hard to avoid unknown dog confrontations when walking on leash. However, he is not nearly as assertive when off leash. The leash is also a factor in your scenario and the reaction of both dogs. There are allot of factors in what you are describing so,
I would strongly suggest you get and read Aggression in Dogs by Brenda Aloff as she goes into great detail on reading dogs and things you can do to avoid what can be explosive situations. It is a good practical application book for the kinds of things you are running into. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4475
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| 04/29/2010 12:44 PM |
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Dogs allowed to roam,create packs and have no boundaries and limitations are feral.
Feral dogs can be dangerous. I can see how an intact dog (your dog) can cause anxiety and aggression in this environment. Females in heat, litters being nursed,food being scarce,etc.
You seem to be in control now, good luck with it all. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7922
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| 04/29/2010 12:50 PM |
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| Also, boognish is right. Other dogs (males) will often react to a new intact male entering their territory which also supports my theory about the approaching dog being defensive of his turf. Is your dog intact? How old is he? Allot of times dogs will pass on a young pup (under about 8 months), where if that same dog is older they may go into a defensive protective posture. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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