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Laska
Posts:5

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| 04/20/2010 11:04 AM |
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I got a gsp puppy a little over a week ago at 12 weeks old. She seemed fine at first, but once I started socializing her, she started freaking out. She is afraid of everything and everyone, including my boyfriend who I live with. She either runs away and hides if anyone else but me is around, or she goes "catatonic", stiffens and shuts her eyes and doesn't move no matter what you do to her. She does this with people or other dogs, she will not play with people or dogs. She will play fetch with me if we are completely alone, and then only for a few minutes, and then she goes to lay down again. She is not sick, I took her to the vet and she checked out ok. She follows me around the house when it is just me there, but as soon as she hears my boyfriends truck park, she hides under the couch until he leaves. She hid for over 12 hours yesterday.
We have never hit her, and we do not even yell at her cause she is so sensitive. When I am alone with her, a simple no is fine, and she never need scolding when the bf is around because she is just hiding. She screams bloody murder when another dog comes close to her. The only other dogs she can handle is older dogs that basically ignore her.
I live in a tiny, extremely isolated town. We do not have the option of "doggy daycare" and any training courses would be over an hour drive each way, but I've been taking her to friends and neighbors for socialization. She is ok as long as it is a small group and everyone ignores her until she comes up to them. If anyone even tries to pet her, she runs. If my boyfriend is there with us, she hides right away without even giving it a chance.
The plan was to train her to hunt, but she needs to be able to travel with me and hang out in the pack. We tried to hike with her the other day (my bf and I), but she bolted back to the truck and hid under it, refusing to go. What do I do with a hunting dog that is afraid of the woods????
Any advice? What is going on in this dog's head? I'm not seeing any improvement and I'm beginning to think that she is not a good fit in our pack, and it breaks my heart. My boyfriend has already told me to take her back to the litter, and I'm starting to agree with him. I'd hate to be that person, though. Help please!!! |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4450


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| 04/20/2010 11:24 AM |
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Just a wild guess, so I could be wrong. The breeder messed up. Not only do I think she was not socialized - at all - she may have been abused - you know, knocked around a bit when she acted up. Puppies like this - unless cured - can turn out to be fear biters,pee machines,shakers,hiders and fear life more then they enjoy it. I would not keep a puppy like this that I paid money for. But then again,if you don't keep her,what will happen to her? Anyway - just my opinions. I could be very wrong here. Best of luck and keep posting questions - all here will help you both get the most out of doggie life. Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Laska
Posts:5

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| 04/20/2010 12:03 PM |
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So if I take her back, do I demand my money back? This seems like a really bad situation...I'm basically taking her back and saying that they are bad breeders, why in the world would they give me my money back? The guy said that if for any reason I cannot keep her, to bring her back, anytime, but this is different.
Do I just take her back and forget about the money? I'm poor, that was my tax return that I spent on her. I know you can't answer these questions, I've gotten myself in an awful situation. No solution seems fair to her or me. |
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everbell Kanata, ON
 MH Posts:3166


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| 04/20/2010 12:18 PM |
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| I guess the question is how much time and effort are you willing to invest in getting her socialized? If she's food motivated you can slowly build up her confidence by working on obedience drills and rewarding her with food. It may take her a long time to come out of her shell (which may not be what you want from a hunting dog). If she was just to be a pet, I would put all the time and effort I could into her. |
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Joce and Rich Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs) Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats) The Everbell Adventures |
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everbell Kanata, ON
 MH Posts:3166


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| 04/20/2010 12:20 PM |
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| BTW -- How big is she? I wonder if the breeder wasn't necessarily forthright about her actual age and she is younger than she should have been when taken from the pack. |
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Joce and Rich Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs) Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats) The Everbell Adventures |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4450


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| 04/20/2010 12:26 PM |
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Don't sell her out so soon. Let others chime in. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Laska
Posts:5

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| 04/20/2010 12:29 PM |
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She is not food motivated at all. I even tried offering her a piece of steak the other day when she was "catatonic". I didn't even make her take it from me, I just left it in front of her nose. She ignored it.
I'm afraid of putting the time and effort into her and then one day she bites someone who just wants to pet her. I'm afraid she will bite me when she gets scared, and she's only 13 weeks old.
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Laska
Posts:5

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| 04/20/2010 12:31 PM |
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She's about 20 lbs. right now. |
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everbell Kanata, ON
 MH Posts:3166


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| 04/20/2010 1:03 PM |
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| Try some other foods to see if you can get her interested. Mine love yogurt, peanut butter, apple and pumpkin. You can probably use these in small quantities with her. |
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Joce and Rich Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs) Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats) The Everbell Adventures |
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escampbell
 MH Posts:213


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| 04/20/2010 1:23 PM |
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If you wish to keep her, I would back off a bit. By that I mean, have people come meet her, but do not have them touch her. Take her places, but do not demand anything of her - do not expect her to greet people, greet other dogs or do much of anything. Just let her hang out. Others should ignore her unless and until she initiates a greeting. You want them to walk in or up to you, say hi to you and ignore her. She should be on leash, so she cannot run away. Since she is fearful, direct eye contact will just make her more fearful. And remember to never "reassure her." Telling a dog, "It's OK, no one is going to hurt you" in a soothing tone, sounds like praise to a dog and reinforces, to them, that their behavior is correct. You want to be very neutral, and praise even tiny bits of progress - one step towards someone, for example. I like crating pups iin wire crates next to me, when people are visiting. Then they can feel safe, but take in everything. Again, have everyone ignore her. Hard to know what is wrong, but I would make sure her vision and her hearing are OK. I own Shelties and knew a kennel raised dog once, who was extremely fearful. We assumed it was because he was raised exclusively in a kennel. Turns out he was partially blind. He could see, but an exam by a vet opthamologist revealed he only had partial vision in one eye and likely saw scarey shadows. A deaf dog can also be scared more easily, because they don't hear anything coming. I hope some of these ideas help. If the breeder is someone you know and trust, call them and tell them what is up and see if he/she has any suggestions. |
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Eleanor Campbell New Jersey Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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TessaGA Georgia
 MH Posts:2387


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| 04/20/2010 1:40 PM |
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Wow...first off, she doesn't sound GSP at all because they are typically happy-go-lucky and outgoing although there can always be shy ones in any breed. I agree with Francine, this dog was either ill-bred, abused, or at a minimum traumatized in some way. Being afraid or uncomfortable around other dogs can come from being a shy and less pushy puppy in a litter that is being "slapped around" by its littermates. Then who knows what happened from the human side - this could have been intentional or unintentional (like someone stepping on her). But this is just speculation. I would call the breeder and simply discuss it. Say that you are uncomfortable with such a shy dog and not experienced enough to deal with this and bring her around. If the breeder is any good he/she will want the best for the pup and take it back or exchange it, if possible. If that doesn't work there are ways to help this dog but it may be a long road to recovery. And hopefully she will not be a fear biter - that is a real problem. The best thing you can do if you want to keep her and work with her, is slowly expose her to more and more things. When she freaks, be neutral and let her work things through on her own - don't baby her, cuddle her, pick her up, or scold her. Just be there, don't talk to the dog, don't touch her. Be calm and the dog will be reassured by your confidence. I once had an American Bulldog puppy from my friends' litter. She was given to me because they felt she needed me as a home as I am very committed to my dogs, live in the city, and am able to socialize her properly. She was adorable, it appealed to me that she was not as rough as her littermates those little bulldog devils, and very sweet. She was shy. I very slowly introduced her to the new surroundings, traffic etc, you have to move very, very slow doing this. A few days later I noticed that the pup was a) very aggressive towards my neighbors grown bulldog and b) growled at and tried to bite a student that walked up to us to pet the puppy (8 weeks old at the time). The combination of shyness and forwardness was more than I could handle. I called the breeders who came and observed the pup in these situations and they took her back right then and there. She found another home and has come around nicely there. It broke my heart but I knew it would be a great injustice to the dog to keep her (also a liability issue for me as I live in the city). Good luck and please keep us posted! |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7844


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| 04/20/2010 3:09 PM |
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I agree with Eleanor on her recommendations. The more you can just hang out with her in different situations the better. Exposure to all kinds of things and often, but with no pressure. You have to be confident though because dogs pick up on our emotions so easy. My oldest GSP was deathly afraid of anything with wheels so we spent a few minutes every day just sitting on the corner of our street watching the kids ride bikes, cars go by, etc. At first she got behind me and hid (she was on leash so she had to stay with me), I let her. Eventually she would just lay next to me and watch. As she improved I had one of the neighbor kids help me with his bike. It was slow going, but Belle is now a therapy dog and is totally oblivious to wheelchairs. She was terrified of them when we first started the wheel therapy.
Your problem is a little different because you don't know what she is fearful of besides larger crowds and your boyfriend. So aside from what Eleanor recommended, I would work to find a treat she adores (liver or cheese or hotdogs usually work well for most dogs, mine also like very ripe bananas so I have a banana treat I make as well). Once you find a high value treat get your boyfriend to help. Start with her on a leash and have him come over (just have him act normal and greet your normally as if the dog was not present) and watch TV or just talk. He should not look at her or even notice she is there. Since she is on the leash (or use a crate) she won't be able to leave. Make sure your boyfirend has some of those high value treats and is holding them. Just have him sit with the hand open and at some point I suspect your pup will get up the nerve to investigate. If she does, your boyfriend should continue to ignore her and not reach or look at her. Eventually she will take the treat. (BTW it may take many days for her to work up the nerve to approach you boyfriend.) You guys just have to be patient and help her work through this fear.
It will not be easy and it will likely take quite a bit of time. Training will help give her confidence as well, so start with basic obedience even if you have to get a book and do it yourself. I would not give up on this dog as she is young enough to work through this, but you have to be committed and willing to invest the time. One other thing that might work is getting her around a bird pin so she can watch and smell them. Awakening her prey drive will overcome allot of issues with fear, but you have to be careful here too because it might frighten her too. Just go slow and steady and be confident.
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7844


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| 04/20/2010 3:23 PM |
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One thing I forgot was always keep high value treats with you. Once she starts adjust and gaining confidence get other people (even strangers) to give her treats. Remember though, no eye contact and she should approach them first. I do not think at this point she will be aggressive or bite unless she is put into a position with too much pressure. As she matures if she does not get over the shyness, then fear aggression is a real possibility. Lastly, I would certainly talk to the breeder and explain the situation. She might be able to give you insight into what happened to cause the behavior, or she might not. Sometimes dogs just react weird to things. Remember they see the world allot differently than we do. There are also allot of good books out there on dog behavior that might be helpful. I would also suggest so time searching the web for suggestions might help too. The best would be working with a good trainer, but books are always a good alternative. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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escampbell
 MH Posts:213


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| 04/20/2010 3:28 PM |
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Great idea about the "casual" treats. I like that! My guys are crazy about those pre-cut chicken pieces or save money and cook some chicken yourself. Meatballs are also good. Just do NOT have your boyfriend get down on the ground, or reach for her! I just wanted to add that I don't agree that GSP pups are usually happy-go-lucky. True, yours is almost pathologically shy, but I have found GSP pups in general to need constant socialization and exposure to all kinds of things. They can also go through a lot of fear periods. Of course I want my dogs to accept pretty much everything, but they are not Goldens in short coats IMO. |
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Eleanor Campbell New Jersey Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7844


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| 04/20/2010 4:44 PM |
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Ditto what Eleanor said about the happy go lucky outgoing shorthair. I have found that shorthairs go through more fear periods than any other dog I have owned (labs, greyhounds, rat terriers). Granted I haven't owned a huge variety, but enough to believe that they are different. I attribute it to their intelligence. Shorthairs are also one of themost intelligent breeds I have known which is why I love training them. Anyway, I was tallking to the guy I train with for field work and we were discussing the soft nature of the shorthair, their clinginess, and even their homesickness when left at a new place. He and I both agreed that allot of what we observe in these behaviors is because of two factors, 1) their intelligence, and 2) their desire to please. Those two factors tend to manifest themselves in different behaviors in the shorthair. We also agreed that shorthairs do best with patience and gentleness in training, and correction (but not harsh) when needed. It was an interesting conversation because he comes out of the field trial world and I out of the obedience world, we are both about the same age too so we have gone through the various training methods from old school to positive only. The other interesting part was when he settled on the dog of his choice, the shorthair, he did it for allot of the same reasons, but the primary one was intelligence. I agree whole heartedly with his assessment. I would even go so far as the say that if you can unlock the secret to reaching your pup, you will have a fine dog. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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MelB
 MH Posts:1217


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| 04/20/2010 7:25 PM |
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I just posted how Xara was totally not on her best behavior at dog class due to her lack of socialization. She too refused treats for the first half hour, barked like a fool and in general stressed to the max. I got Xara and she was too little for her first shots so she missed out on puppy class, then winter hit and I was not about to travel to where the building is in winter weather, so now she's just getting out and about to strange places other than the vet, and the pet store and it shows. The advice I got here was great, and we will be returning to class on Thursday, only I'll just let her watch and she and I will do our own thing until she settles down adn realizes that nothing is going to hurt her. She'll come around, but it will take time. Take it slow, you've only had her a week and possibly she was the more timid of the litter to begin with and was shoved around alot by litter mates and perhaps even the older dogs in the house terrorized her. It is odd though that she isn't more inquisitive of things at this age, even though she might be fearful at first, usually curiosity gets them pretty quick. I wish you luck and let us know what the breeder says! |
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Marie Wisconsin
 MH Posts:2721


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| 04/20/2010 8:49 PM |
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| Feel sad for you to have a shy GSP puppy. I do have empathy as our Chese/ lab Snickers was a shy puppy we adopted at 12 weeks old. She would run and go hide under our bed every time a person entered the room. My first nature forest walk with Snickers, she walked for 20 feet, startled by a noise, darted back to the car and hide under the car by the back tire. She was also afraid of Thunder and Storms of any kind. She would go under the bed and stay there until the storms were over. I would have to cancel Vet appointments with her if a storm was in the air as she grew to be 87lbs. If a person tried to pet her she would back away. She was not aggressive at all and did enjoy others who brought their dogs over to visit. We just let her be and learn at her own pace. She made a great low energy family dog. I did feel bad for my husband as we never could train her to be a hunting dog.We adopted Rocky at 12 months old when Snickers was 10 yrs old. We found it so refreshing to have a young GSP without all those shy issue. Best wishes for you and what ever direction you decide to go. |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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zimbass
 MH Posts:237


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| 04/21/2010 9:39 AM |
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| Thats sad, for the pup and you, you picked the right breed for your needs, hunting, hiking etc. and then to have this situation, do you happen to know anyone who got a littermate? |
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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2095 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2532
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gsp-fan AZ
 MH Posts:353

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| 04/21/2010 10:25 AM |
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I was where you are at 5yrs ago with my GSP. What you are describing with the shyness was my dog. He did accept the household members (4 adults & 2 other dogs). We socialized him, took him everywhere to get him over it - some of it worked some did not. The whole world was just a scary place to him except in his yard with us but if people would come over he would hide. We thought we were the worst GSP owners in the world (we had other dogs who never had this issue). He did not like strangers in his house, out walking or near me. even to this day he will hide & watch people who come over he has known his whole life. He accepts men better than women. We found a birddog trainer who was 2hrs from where we lived and took him to be evaluated and it was amazing the things they gave us to work on. We were lucky enough that the trainers wife had done GSP Rescue so she helped with ideas also. It has been a long road with him and he has gotten better with certain things. I never fear that my dog will bite me but he could bite others and so I make sure he is not put in a situation. I tell you all this because even if you do decide to keep her you could be in the position I am today. You need to ask yourself honestly are you prepared to have a dog like mine for 10-15yrs. Now the good things about my boy: I would not trade him for the world, he is loyal, protective and an all around goof and I love him with all my heart. We travel with all our dogs and it is fine. Others on this board have given you great advice - I just wanted you to hear from someone with a dog who will have issues for the rest of his life. |
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Laska
Posts:5

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| 04/21/2010 1:01 PM |
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Thank you everyone for the advice, stories, etc. Laska did a little better last night, we went for a hike (just the two of us) and she was a normal crazy gsp. She played with my boyfriends puppy after that for a couple hours, on and off, and even dominated her a little. I didn't mention it, but my bf got a 5.5 week blue heeler who is about 7 weeks now. He left his puppy with me last night and went out, and it was one of the first times the two of them have played. When he got home, she crawled behind me on the couch and that's where she stayed until bedtime, which I think was an improvement over crawling under the couch.
Today i had to bring them both to the office, and I just had to put one in the truck for a while because they were being so rowdy and romping together. This afternoon I will drop Laska off at a friends house for a little daycare. I'm not as worried after last night and this morning, she has been acting more normal (again, for a gsp). I did not contact the breeder, I think I will wait a little longer and see if this improvement lasts.
I asked the bf to follow the advice of paying no attention to her and giving her treats if she comes near him on her own. I will keep updates on whether or not they can get along. Obviously, him being a blue heeler kind of owner and me a gsp, we are very different in our breed preferences (like, exact opposites), and I just don't think he appreciates the breed like I do. Hopefully that will change.
I have owned a gsp before, which is why I chose this breed, my last dog died this winter of old age and I am not comfortable going in the back country without a dog...there's so many bears, big cats, coyotes, and other dangers around here (even in town). I know the breed from having the Coco for 7 years, but I got her from a shelter at 4 years old, so I have never been through the gsp puppy years.
Anyway, thanks again for all the advice, and I'll keep updating her progress. I'm sure I will have more questions as I try to figure this out. |
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