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wems2371User is Offline
Eastern Iowa
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02/02/2010 7:32 PM  

I read quickly and am not sure that I got the whole gist of the thread in doing so.  On one hand I read something about no medical issues, on the other hand I read this in a post near the end:

"she has been on 2 bladder muscle control meds and multiple antibiotics for UTIs"

This post really strikes me as more of a medical issue, and that is because we had serious potty training issues at our house with the latest pup that sound similar to yours.  None of it was due to her inability to learn, but more with a condition called puppy vaginitis concurrent with what I believe most would call an innie vulva.  You can google both of those for information.  Anyway, an innie vulva is a vulva that isn't pronounced, but rather tucked into fat folds and harbors bacteria.  Since the anatomy will not change until the first heat cycle, when swelling occurs, you can end up in a cycle of UTIs in the meantime.  I believe pups have can have puppy vaginitis, without the innie vulva, as well.  Anyway, this is my experience with my youngest pup, and from the reading I've done--it is very common.  I think my girl was on antibiotics 5x from 2.5 to 7 months old.  As she aged, she got better about holding it longer, but still had numerous accidents every day during that period...and we put her out like clockwork--sometimes as often as every 20 minutes.  She also had occasional pooping accidents, but I attribute that to her not really knowing what was acceptable, due to a condition that forced her to pee somewhat uncontrollably at times.  She has been UTI free and completely potty broke for the last 2 months, but despite my hard surface floors, it was a frustrating time.  I do not know if it did any good, but I did and still am supplementing with Acidophilus chewables and Cranberry gel tabs.  Some folks swear by that.  So long story short, I am NOT saying this is what your puppy has, but it sure sounds familiar.  If she has had multiple UTIs, I would think you have an underlying issue of some sort.  Sorry if I'm way off base.


Countrysides Red Hot Roxi
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1176
Snips Bring It On Brandi
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1711
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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02/02/2010 8:19 PM  
wems - Very interesting post. I thankfully have never seen it, but some really good and insightful info. I do know UTIs can be a pain to get rid of and like your experience can take multiple doses of antibiotics. Hopefully, some of this info will help GSPNate and his pup. That was my hope anyway when I suggested he post over here.

GSPNate - Good luck with the pup and whatever you decide let us know how it goes.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
GSP NateUser is Offline
Wisconsin
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02/02/2010 8:54 PM  

mel
your pups condition sounds very similar to mine. I have not closely monitored her water intake as I have the one gallon bottle that fills the bowl as it gets low. My pup will sit and suck water for long periods and tank up at night but she rarely has problems at night it is usually during the day when she is active and I rarely see her suck alot of water during the day. I will try to monitor her water intake if possible and see what that tells me.

wems
that is an interesting point, I say "I don't believe" its medical because even after being on all those meds nothing ever changed. Both muscle control meds did nothing to change the behavior. she had a UTI/bladder infection combination about 4 months ago.  I said multiple meds because the first 2 didn't work so vet came to believe it was the food causing the urinary problems (hence all the food changes) so with a food change and yet another antibiotic she finally got over the urinary infections. After being on the urinary meds is when the pooping initially started...antibiotics kill good bacteria too i guess...after 2 months of yogurt and no poop accidents I thought the bout with the poop was over until last week when she did it again (might have been my fault) it was after she strained for almost 10 minutes to go that I had her come in the house and as she was running into the living room she stopped hunched up and went almost as if she had no control over it.

I guess I am extremely hopeful that it is not medical also because I have been laid off for almost 6 months and the vet bills just can't keep going gotta feed my family before I can worry about a puppy. I am doing my best to prevail cause I really don't want to give her up but I have to have priorities...

keep the suggestions coming I will try almost anything...cost permitting


Nate

Dakota's Pedigree @ Perfect Pedigrees

Schatzi's Pedigree @ Perfect Pedigrees
GSP NateUser is Offline
Wisconsin
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02/02/2010 9:08 PM  
Basically what I am seeing is when she is active or excited (whining/howling in kennel, or running around the house) is when it most frequently happens. The pooping multiple times while running/hunting the vet thinks is from an adrenaline rush/excitability and she just loses control at times and maybe that is why she only has accidents in the house when she is active or in the kennel when she is howling and going crazy. Who knows maybe age will overcome it...I hope so sooner than to late.

Thank you for any and all suggestions

Nate

Dakota's Pedigree @ Perfect Pedigrees

Schatzi's Pedigree @ Perfect Pedigrees
MJonesUser is Offline
Mars PA
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02/03/2010 4:56 AM  

Just a thought regarding water intake and keeping her hydrated.  My vet recommends pedialyte ice cubes.  It can slow down the drinking and keep them hydrated. 


Life without shorthairs is life without laughter...Maria, Cooper and Penny Lane
SplatUser is Offline
Illinois (Northern)
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02/03/2010 5:53 AM  
I agree with MelB on the fact that if they go outside and pee once it is not enough....I let mine go 3 or 4 times and that only takes maybe 15 minutes!

Then I say use the leash inside so that she is with you at all times so you can catch all behaviors!

I know it must be rough with the puppy and the baby!

FrancisMcGeeUser is Offline
Ann Arbor, MI
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02/03/2010 6:24 AM  

Nate-

Besides the peeing, how is her behavior otherwise?  Has she been easy to train and work with in the field?  How does her behavior differ from Dakotas or other GSPs you have been around?  How often does she pee outside when in the field?

To me, it sounds like you and your wife are doing everything right.  I can completely understand how frustrating this must be, especially combined with a layoff.

I guess my questions above stem from the fact that if you chose to rehome her will this even be a solveable issue?  Or...will she just need to be an outside dog exclusively?  There are many dogs that are easy to train, fun to hunt, live very happy/productive lives, but never even set foot inside a house.  Besides a medical condition, it makes no sense to me why she isn't housebroken yet.


 

MelBUser is Offline

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02/03/2010 8:46 AM  
I really don't consider that Xara has a "condition" so to speak. I do think she is a very immature pup, who was the runt of the litter and therefore I must expect some delays in development to pop up here and there. Much like you would a premie human baby, there are going to be some things that are delayed, but it doesn't mean they won't develop with time and maturity.
Xara does know what going outside to potty is, she always, always goes to the door. She never just stops and squats. If she does, it means I missed her cue to go outside. Fortunately, or maybe not, Sniper has taught her how to bang on the door with her feet to tell me she has to go out. She jumps on the door and bangs it every time. When I hear that noise I better be moving to get her out.
Like a little kid who is playing and doesn't want to miss the fun and waits too long and then has to run to the potty holding themselves least they pee their pants.......that's Xara. She gets sidetracked easily.
If her inability to control her bladder doesn't improve with age, then I will seek to find out what the problem is and if necessary surgically, or medicine wise corrrect the issue. If it can't be corrected,,,well I will say a prayer daily for my Bissell Steam Cleaner, and learn to watch Xara's every move and anticipate when she might have to go! Course I don't have youngsters crawling around on my floors either!
If I thought for two seconds that your girl would fit in my household well I'd bring her here in a heartbeat. But right now with Sienna sick I'm dealing with enough issues sad to say. Plus Sniper finally has a dog he actually likes and gets along with, not sure I want to upset the apple cart as they say and bring another in the house.
Give your girl time, watch her cues, watch the water intake, wear her little butt out during the day with long walks and hikes and runs and see if that doesn't help her out some. Give her time to mature, she could just be a late bloomer.
GSP NateUser is Offline
Wisconsin
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02/03/2010 1:46 PM  
besides the peeing she is awesome. she has high gotten high praises from John Voight who has been helping me train her, her basic commands came to her very quickly and easily. She is 100 times more friendly than dakota real excitable when people come over always wants to be with you. She is a 180 degree opposite of Dakota who is very introverted compared to all other GSPs I have seen she was my first and nothing like I had expected after seeing other GSPs. I have house trained many dogs including a problem dog (Dakota) some of you may remember all the posts back in 2004/2005...Dakota got to the point of being 2 years old and I almost gave her up because of it and changed my breed preference back to labs. I have not done that yet but...Schatzi is very lovable and fun to watch run and play and hunt...she loves people and other dogs...she would make an awesome pet/hunter if I could keep her outside all the time, but the winters here get pretty gruesome at times and I'm not sure she could handle it outside 24/7/365.

Most of you will probably shun me for this but today she may have broke the camels back. I leave for a few hours come home and wife tells me she peed in kennel then she pees on me while I'm standing in the door, after my wife had just taken them out. Even though it breaks my heart she currently has a 95% chance of going to the humane society next week, will try to rehome her if possible but everyone I know wants nothing to do with this dog...now what??? I did my best I have nothing more I can do...

Nate

Dakota's Pedigree @ Perfect Pedigrees

Schatzi's Pedigree @ Perfect Pedigrees
zodiakgspsUser is Offline
NW PA
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02/03/2010 2:02 PM  
What about the breeder taking her back?? I may have missed if that was suggested....kinda read through the thread quickly.
GSP NateUser is Offline
Wisconsin
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02/03/2010 2:31 PM  
contacted breeder when this originally started when she was still a young pup and the vet thought it may be a medical/genetic problem with the ureters not connecting where they were suppose to.

I was told she'lll take the dog back but her guarantee was only for 2 weeks after dog leaves her care (cause after that she has no control over the atmosphere the dog is in) Her guarantee only takes effect if vet records are supplied to prove it was a genetic problem and then and only then would she give me another pup no other option. It was a good breeding and recommended by a very reputable and well known breeder just not sure if the actual breeder is someone I would return too or trust with my dog.

Slowly cooling off...maybe a 90% chance...why can't she just do what she knows is right...thanks...gonna go take the dogs to a field to run. Be back on later

Nate

Dakota's Pedigree @ Perfect Pedigrees

Schatzi's Pedigree @ Perfect Pedigrees
been far eastUser is Offline

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02/03/2010 2:57 PM  
YES TO LATE BLOOMER , My Dottie is just doing good now . She had some of the same things as Schatzi .SHE IS 10 MONTHS . i took her out by HER SELF just me and her . So she could do her task at hand . I got up every time she whined and let her out . I crate trained her by putting her in with Rocky for short trips It worked and she no longer howls.Just like kids no two are the same . Do not free feed LIMIT THE WATER ,use the ice cubes ,it helps . I HAVE SUCESS its just around the corner I know . Dottie got the messeges mixed up. She would tell you after she went that she had to go and had little control . Now she can go out with Rocky and do all her tasks ( been far east )
MarieUser is Offline
Wisconsin
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Posts:2721


02/03/2010 4:15 PM  
My deepest sympathy and heart goes out to GSP Nate and Katie with this pee problem with Schatzi. Just got to be tough. Will pray problem will be solved, do feel so sad. You are a great family. So happy we got a summer chance with our busy lives to meet in the park. Schatzi was a sweet pup and do remember how she ran off to meet the others in the park as Rocky and Dakota just kept chasing after the tennis balls. Yes you will be deep in my prayers that things will turn around and go in a positive up direction. You donot deserve what you are going thur.

Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231
GSP NateUser is Offline
Wisconsin
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Posts:56


02/03/2010 4:35 PM  
hey Marie thanks for the words of encouragement, maybe this summer we can get together again sometime I know the boys loved Rocky.

all-schatzi is safe for another week I am a little cooler headed now, I was madder than mad and mad enough earlier that I would have gotten rid of her...thanks for listening to me vent...

been far east...I sure hope you are right, for now she still has a chance, gonna try the vet once more to see if there is yet another med to maybe help her hold it...

Nate

Dakota's Pedigree @ Perfect Pedigrees

Schatzi's Pedigree @ Perfect Pedigrees
erikacarrilloUser is Offline
La Honda, CA
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Posts:229


02/03/2010 5:28 PM  

My boyfriend was getting frustrated with Koda because is took her until about 7 or 8 months to be trustworthy with the potty training.  He threatened to get rid of her, although he was the one that got her, but I convinced him that you need to stick with the potty schedule, correct accidents, and reinforce the right spot to go.  Hope things start to turn around for you soon. 

MarieUser is Offline
Wisconsin
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Posts:2721


02/03/2010 5:32 PM  

Yes!! We all love pictures on this forum. Rocky meeting Schatzi, first GSP pup last summer with GSP Nate and his family last summer.


Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231
MarieUser is Offline
Wisconsin
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Posts:2721


02/03/2010 5:38 PM  

Schatzi GSP pup looking sweetly up at her Daddy for pup direction. Just adorable sweet puppy face.


Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231
MelBUser is Offline

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02/03/2010 5:42 PM  
awwwwwwwww she's so cute!!
jlp8cornellUser is Offline
Ithaca NY
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02/03/2010 6:01 PM  
Has she has xrays of her bladder with contrast? A friend worked for a vet a while back with similar problems whose bladder was malformed? She required surgery but that corrected the issue. Bladder stones can also Cause an issue.

Jen
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2440
Terra's OwnerUser is Offline
Planet Earth
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Posts:262


02/03/2010 6:09 PM  

My last full time job was troubleshooting computer software issues so I am still in tshooting mode. It is handy for lots of things.....so I have some observations/questions for you. Don't need to answer me, just think.

Posted By GSP Nate on 02/02/2010 8:54 PM
"... My pup will sit and suck water for long periods and tank up at night but she rarely has problems at night it is usually during the day when she is active and I rarely see her suck alot of water during the day. "
 

It seems interesting that there are not problems at night.
Or, as I read in an earlier post, if you leave her in the crate while you are gone from 7 to 7.
The pee just doesn't leak out, does it? She squats, right?
Oh, both. Hmmmm......

Is your household noisy/exciting/kidchaos while she is active and peeing inside? What if things are calm?

My Bearoff drinks a lot of water and has to pee a lot. Not just a quick squirt on everything, long pees. He doesn't go in the house any more though.   It seems like Bearoff has fast metabolism, hence more peeing. My other dogs don't drink or pee nearly as much as he does. Is she just growing and metabolizing faster than her bladder can handle? Metabolism being slower when sleeping at night, much faster when active during the day.

I do think she will outgrow it but I don't have any better insights than anyone else. I don't think I would spend any more money on vets though. Not unless there is an obvious medical condition. In my experience, vet bills can run up fast while not getting much value for the funds spent. I know it has been happening for a while now and it is very annoying to clean up pee all the time, but I'd just observe and keep working with her. I didn't think Bearoff would ever learn not to go in the house.  If you are unemployed, you probably have more time to spend with her now. I think that makes a big difference for them.

 Good Luck  !!!

Hmmm.....fonts are challenging....


 


John (human), Bearoff (gsp), Jenny (Plott), Sunshine (Heinz57 rip 11/4/2010), Terra (missing but still in my heart)
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