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Subject: got some testing the waters issues happening
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RyanGSPUser is Offline

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10/28/2009 12:47 PM  
Posted By wgspr rescue on 10/25/2009 12:28 PM
hummmm, RyanGSP, Ryan, Ryan...what are you thinking? The rest in my head is better off left unsaid...


Say what you want. One thing I dont tolerate is a dog that growls at people when it shouldnt. A dog that does this is dealt with swiftly and is put into its place right now, thats how it is a pack. I dont baby them and use verbal scolding, neither would a pack member. I use my body and my voice to put a dog in its place same with a pack member. No I dont beat them but they are put down into submission with a firm hand. People fail to realize these are pack animals and when they are growing up in the pack they constantly challenge pack members until they are put in their place and know where their place is. Some catch on faster than others but they all learn otherwise its like Pixie said they find another pack/home.

Kids are able to get right into both my dogs face when eating or chewing on a bone without me having to worry because they know biting or gorwling is not allowed. Instead they move off and come back when the kids are not around or pickup their bone and go away.

Texas BelleUser is Offline
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10/28/2009 1:29 PM  
You do not have to get overly physical and loud with the dogs to keep peace in the pack. I have never thrown one of my gang on the floor and I do not have any problems with pack order or aggressive behaviour. Training methods and establishing pack order methodologies have changed quite a bit over the years. Most animal behaviorists believe that things like the alpha roll cause more problems than they fix. I am not saying there may not be a time and a place for it, but most people do not need to use the rougher techniques to establish pack order or dominance over a dog. For anyone interested in more information on aggression of all types in dogs and how to handle it Brenda Aloff has a good book out called Aggression in Dogs: Practical Management, Prevention and Behaviour Modification. There are a lot of other good books out there by Animal Behaviourists besides this one. I just happen to have been reading this one recently and thought it was pretty good and thought folks on this thread might find it interesting and/or useful.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
RyanGSPUser is Offline

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10/28/2009 1:32 PM  
Noone is saying get overly rough or loud but the dog needs to be put into their place.
Texas BelleUser is Offline
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10/28/2009 1:42 PM  

Sorry, my misunderstanding.  It is just when you said:

"I use my body and my voice to put a dog in its place same with a pack member. No I dont beat them but they are put down into submission with a firm hand"

That sounds pretty physical and potentially loud to me.  I also was not trying to say you shouldn't do what you do as I do not have a clear picture of what your correction entails, but only that there may be alternatives that could work equally well.  The pack order and aggression in dogs is something that is of great interest to me and is something I have done allot of reading/and studying on.  As an instructor I see various forms of aggression in dogs pretty regularly and I personally like to head it off at the pass before anyone gets hurt, and correct the behaviour as quickly as possible.  Reading the dog is important because the signs are always there.  We as humans do not always recognize them.  Anyway, the book is a good book for those that are interested.


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
RyanGSPUser is Offline

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10/28/2009 1:43 PM  
If you read my 1st post you would understand the 2nd post.
Texas BelleUser is Offline
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10/28/2009 1:56 PM  
If you mean your disclaimer, that still seemed a bit physical to me. I stand by my statement again with the caveat that I have not seen a demo of what you mean. If it works for you, and no one gets hurt, then that is fantastic. I just wanted to point out that there are other equally good ways of addressing aggression issues that may be easier to execute and less risky with regard to someone getting hurt.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
RyanGSPUser is Offline

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10/28/2009 1:59 PM  
Your already in trouble with a snappy dog and if you read the 1st part it said not to yell at the dog but to give it a scolding in a growling tone. Read the whole thing instead of what you just want to read.
Texas BelleUser is Offline
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10/28/2009 2:06 PM  
Ryan - I did read the whole thing and I was not trying to pick a fight with you, but only to comment that there are other ways to address this issue. I suggested a book that might be helpful to all. So, please do not take offense at my posts or comments. I already said I was sorry that I misinterpreted what you posted. Again, I will apologize for any offense I may have caused as that was not my intention.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
pixie beeUser is Offline

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10/28/2009 2:11 PM  
Dwayners,
I believe that aggression,really every aspect of our dog, is a combination of breeding and environment - environment being training,socialiing,food,ect,but mostly environment.
A dog bred with poor nerve is more difficult to maintain.
Since your dogs' behavior has not stopped your technique has not been fully effective,I am assuming they have not gone further,such as a nip or bite.So, maybe your technique has kept them in check or maybe they have not been pushed that far.
Dogs don't feel sorry, they don't have morals. They react.Some react passively - we would say no reaction, and some bite. A no reaction,depending on the situation, does not necessarily indicate a stronger nerve or a better reaction - if it is avoidance it can be just as dangerous.
Your dog growling and going to the bad place does not indicate,to me, that she understands this is unwanted behavior. It tells me she growls - off to the bad place - it is more of a routine for her,just what happens when she growls. If she truely understood it was unwanted behavior she wouldn't do it.
You pose a good point. Does meeting aggression with aggression stop aggressive behavior?
As long as it is understood that aggression has many shades and applications. I do believe that an act of age appropriate and action appropriate aggression can stop dog aggression in it's tracks.It works all the time in the animal world.It's how status is determined.
If I can't get respect I will settle for fear, but this is for the truely unbalanced animal.
Thankfully, with the dogs we have we do not have issues. I would easliy place another male puppy into my environment w/o fear.


"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
pixie beeUser is Offline

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10/28/2009 2:51 PM  
In regards the Ryan and Bev,
what Ryan is refering to I am sure is only applied to when a dog is being aggressive or about to display aggression. I do not think anyone would dominate a dog that did not require it. The act of domination is to establish hierarchy,if the dog is already 'in it's place' the hierarchy is established.
There are so many ways to dominate a dog that putting it on the ground should be last on the list.Truethfully, if the dog has a high degree of hardness that method doesn't work. Physical dicipline will not work. What works is working a dog - having it obey you for long periods of time and building stress levels when a dog is young.


"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
pixie beeUser is Offline

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10/28/2009 3:06 PM  
Dwayners,
if I may make a suggestion.
I believe your dogs growl b/c altho you may be bigger and stronger they really don't see you as their leader.They do what you want b/c you can make them do it. I would completely remove all furniture privledges,even when your not home. That means keeping a sharp eye as th where they are and stop them while they are thinking about going on furniture - removing them is ok but they already got what they wanted. If you are unable to do that then I would suggest you keep a long cord on the dog(s),like 30' or more. When you seethe dog on the furniture you can grab the cord at a distance,give a verbal and then reinforce,firmly and be convincing.
Just some ideas that may help

Francine


"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
DwaynersUser is Offline
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10/29/2009 8:27 AM  
Posted By pixie bee on 10/28/2009 3:06 PM
Dwayners,
if I may make a suggestion.
I believe your dogs growl b/c altho you may be bigger and stronger they really don't see you as their leader.They do what you want b/c you can make them do it. I would completely remove all furniture privledges,even when your not home. That means keeping a sharp eye as th where they are and stop them while they are thinking about going on furniture - removing them is ok but they already got what they wanted. If you are unable to do that then I would suggest you keep a long cord on the dog(s),like 30' or more. When you seethe dog on the furniture you can grab the cord at a distance,give a verbal and then reinforce,firmly and be convincing.
Just some ideas that may help

Francine

 

Thanks Francine, I appreciate your constructive input.

I tried that before we had shorthairs and maybe it's just because the other dog is a border collie but keeping them off the furniture is pretty much unenforceable (we also have a cat...the dogs just wouldn't get it), it just leads to trouble when I get home. What I did last night was change my approach as I think the growling might be more out of fear/uncertainty than agression/dominance. Instead of coming to her with excitement and a more rough style of petting I remained very relaxed and started gently. This worked much better and we were able to work up to a more excited state of mind where she can express her excitement verbally without starting with the growly tone, dilated pupils and partially open mouth. Bear in mind she is a shelter dog so we have not had the pleasure of bringing her up from a pup and she probably comes with a few issues, likely including a mistrust of men. I figure if I can get the trust up I might not have this problem.

I crated her for kicks for about 10 minutes as well last night. This probably helped reinforce my leadership role as she seemed a better dog when she came out.

For what it's worth only Michigan growls.

 

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