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MelB
MH
Posts:1217
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| 09/10/2009 6:22 PM |
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I had bought Xara some new toys yesterday. Well Sniper really really liked them only they are for puppies and not up to his larger teeth so I asked Dave to please get him the same toys only in the larger version.
Big mistake. Evidently Xara's toys are ok to share, but Sniper isn't about to share HIS new toys with Xara. She got too close to the one and he snapped at her. OK, I just told him to be nice and let it go,,,until she got too close again and he really went for her. Didn't hurt her at all, but not something I am accepting. So Sniper got his new toys taken away an hour after he got them.
He can only have them when she's not out until the newness wears off, then he will share them. Xara took the corrections well, she ran and hid as usual when a big dog gets too rambunctious, but I was not a happy camper with Sniper's even thinking that toys are something he needs to guard and claim as his. He has not done it with the old toys around the house, just these new ones.
I was just glad they were corrections and not a flat out attack! |
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DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
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| 09/10/2009 7:38 PM |
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Oh, be very very careful here. As a general rule, as long as the older dog is not truly hurting the puppy, I leave it alone. By interfering, you can create a real problem in pack order. The older dog is by definition the alpha and while a true attack is not acceptable, they have to be allowed to discipline the baby. I strongly suggest you butt out.
My two cents - take it or leave it - but it's one born of experience. Currently we have a 10 dog pack that lives together with no fights, because we as the humans allow the pack to establish its own equilibrium.
Jean |
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"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
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Kerplunk105
Bucks County, PA
MH
Posts:713
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| 09/10/2009 8:16 PM |
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| I second that. I've never corrected my dogs for correcting a puppy. They need to establish the pack order. Really, there is nothing wrong with him saying this is mine to a squirt like her. Obviously, if it turns into something more, thats a whole another issue. |
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Elizabeth
Leena RIP 11/08-9/17/09
Bliss, the Labrador
Tegan, the Weim/Labrador
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MelB
MH
Posts:1217
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| 09/10/2009 8:49 PM |
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the thing was the first correction was just a snap, the second though was a bit more. I know Sniper and I know his corrections escalate quickly. Plus he needs to learn that toys are not something he needs to guard, he has issues with guarding objects to the extreme and we are working on that, but I wasn't willing to see just how hard, or far, he'd go to correct her. He has, and will, draw blood if left to keep correcting.
I was ok with the first correction, but the second bordered on being too strong and too over hard for the situation at hand. I do understand he should be allowed to correct her, but I won't risk her being harmed either and he tends to not stop once he's reached a certain level of anxiety over things. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 09/11/2009 7:26 AM |
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You said she got to close and he snapped. That's not a correction,that's aggression.
She apparently didn't take him to seriously and went back in. What happened the second time? Did you end it or wait to see how they both reacted? Xara may end up living in fear. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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zimbass
MH
Posts:237
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| 09/11/2009 9:43 AM |
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| I had to seperate our Golden and GSP once, they had some small scuffles over a few toys, eventually they had an all out battle and had to be seperated. Now over toys they haven't been fighting but you can clearly see they respect each other when one has a toy and the other wants it. I would not ever put a pup in that scenario that could get out of hand. All our Brittany has to do is growl and the GSP goes submissive and the Golden runs away. |
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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2095
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2532
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7843
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| 09/11/2009 10:25 AM |
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| So, the real problem here is the older dog and how he sees himself in the pack. Until that problem is corrected I would keep the pup out of his way at least where toys and food are concerned. In a normal pack scenario where the humans are seen is alpha then what Jean is describing is absolutely the right way to go. Let the pack settle the order on their own. It works. The problem though here is the pack order is not established correctly so you setup a volatile situation. I don't have 10 dogs like Jean, but I do have three dogs. I never removed the pups away from my older dogs. They got integrated into pack and the older dogs corrected when needed and the pups were the bottom of the pecking order until they grew up enough to establish their own position. Now that my boy is 15 months I am seeing a little jockeying between him and my youngest female for the number 2 spot. We will see how it plays out. No one challenges my oldest female who is my quiet alpha dog. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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MelB
MH
Posts:1217
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| 09/11/2009 7:49 PM |
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Pixie the second time I ended it by removing the toys, he was fine after that. Sniper has some major security issues, he always has, he goes from zero to 100 in 3 seconds if he wants to guard something. Luckily he does not and never has exhibited toy aggression with humans. Now food, I can take anything away from him except his food bowl. He has never bit us, but he would if we weren't careful. We are working on this and he is getting a bit better with US, but another animal,,,,,,,,he flat out attacks and he means business.
The first time he snapped at her over the toy it was a correction, when she didn't get it and wandered close the second time it was much much more like an attack. I stepped between them and immediately picked up the toy and Sniper immediately backed down. He was 100% fine with her once the toy was off the floor.
We have been working under the guidance of a behavioralist who has us using different exercises with Sniper and the other dogs to help show him his position in the pack here. My older springer Sienna attacked him, viciously, when he was a pup. While he totally respects her now, she STILL wants to attack him. So they are never, ever out alone or off leash together. They will walk together on a walk, on leash , fairly close, but no way would I trust her not to attack him unsupervised. We are easing them into learning to live peacefully enough that they can now meet nose to nose in the hallway and Sienna does not immediately launch herself at Sniper.
Sniper on the other hand attacks the cocker spaniel every opportunity he gets. I didn't neuter Sniper until he was 9 months old, the cocker was not neutered at that time either due to his epilepsy not being under control and a reluctance to put him under anesthesia until it was under control. When Sniper hit maturity, he started to challenge Lou, Lou is a VERY insecure, neurotic cocker and of course fought back immediately. In the beginning the fights were once every so often and always when food was in the vacinity, and always instigated by Sniper. Then they escalated to whenever they entered the same doorway together, food or not. Then one day, I did not see what happened, it turned into a blood bath. I immediately contacted the vet, who said neuter BOTH dogs NOW and pray it helps, but most likely, it won't do much. She was right. It really didn't help much at all on Snipers part, BUT it did help on Lou's. Sniper's has now became a learned behavior. Sniper sees Lou=anxiety=aggression=attack. Lou totally ignores Sniper now, but Sniper cannot get beyond the previous fights. We walk them together and do have them out with both on leash in the house under control at all times and are working on teaching Sniper to look to US when Lou gets close instead of going into attack mode. He IS getting much better with this, but I will never be able to trust them off leash alone or unsupervised.
Sniper is ONLY like this in the house. I could bring him to your home and turn him lose with your dogs and even if one of yours corrected him, he'd back off and respect the correction. I can take him to the training club, and turn him lose with 10 other dogs, of various ages and sexes, neutered/un-neutered and he is absolutely 100% fine. But bring those same dogs into his home and all bets are off.
He's very territorial, it's his major downfall.
But I will NOT allow him to attack Xara, a correction yes, an attack no. And I know him pretty darn good. It was totally my mistake in judgement on bringing the new toys in the house, he was being sooooo good with her with the other toys I thought he would be ok with new ones. I made a major error on that one. Now I learned, and Xara is none the worse for wear, and I won't put her in that situtation again. As she grows I will watch close for any changes in Sniper's behavior towards her trust me. I am praying he remains as smitten with her then as he is now! I believe with the training I am getting from the behavioralist and the work we are doing now with Sniper he will be able to live with Xara peacefully with no issues. She's a female which definitely works in my favor. If she was another male, I don't think he'd be so good. |
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Kerplunk105
Bucks County, PA
MH
Posts:713
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| 09/11/2009 9:30 PM |
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| I'm not quite sure why you would get another dog when the pack you have isnt stable. Its not really even fair to have brought her into this situation what could be potentially dangerous. |
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Elizabeth
Leena RIP 11/08-9/17/09
Bliss, the Labrador
Tegan, the Weim/Labrador
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MelB
MH
Posts:1217
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| 09/12/2009 6:59 AM |
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Please don't judge. It is not "dangerous" for her here. Yeah my dogs have some issues that need worked through, and they are being addressed with professional help, and it IS working with them very well.
If I felt that Xara was going to be attacked every day, every time she moved trust me she wouldn't be here. Sniper is fine with her. We take precautions, the same precautions we take with the others. We feed in crates so there are no space issues. Sniper and Xara are out together and Sienna and Lou are out together. I know MANY homes who have to do doggy rotation to avoid nasty situations between one or more of their dogs. It's something we have got used to doing, but now at least if they do meet nose to nose no one is attacking anyone in a split second and they are beginning to accept each other.
I know there is a pack dynamic situation, which is why I sought professional assistance. All will be well, Sniper likes Xara and she's safe here. Lou likes her and she's safe with him. Sienna is 13, she doesn't tolerate pups well, knowing that we monitor interaction and don't put either pup or her in a situation that may be explosive. |
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