Dirtysailor
Western PA
MH
Posts:134
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| 08/26/2009 10:49 AM |
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I have two males a father and son 2.5 years apart in age (4 and 1.5). The younger one is sewing his roots and always instigating fights with the older one. I want to end this now before one gets hurt. I wanted to hunt them together but can't with this kind of behavior. They are good with other dogs but get into at home only when food is around and they both want my attention. The younger one always starts out by growling and then they turn on each other. They have hunted together well in the past seasons but now this new problem has me skeptical that even retrieves will even start a fight. Any advice? |
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MelB
MH
Posts:1203
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| 08/26/2009 11:00 AM |
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I have this issue between my male cocker and my male springer, both dogs are neutered but weren't when they first started to fight. And it's always over food, or perceived food/attention also.
What I've been doing and it appears to be helping alot is having the instigator, in this case the springer, out on leash only attached to me. When I so much as see him look at the cocker I say his name and treat him when he looks to me. If he goes to snap at the cocker I give a very quick sharp correction with a UT UT! and do not treat him. We work at this for at least a 1/2 hr 3 times a week (unfortunately it's all my work schedule allows). Sniper is now where I can walk past Lou while Dave feeds Lou and 90% of the time Sniper looks to me immediately and gets his rewards for behaving in the situation. We've also done it the opposite way, where I am feeding Sniper and Lou walks past (in this case on leash also), when Sniper totally ignores Lou walking by "his" food Sniper gets a jackpot of treats as a reward.
Will I ever be able to fully trust them off leash together unsupervised,,,most likely not. All I can do at this point is to manage it and control it as best I can through behavior modification and teaching tolerance of each other.
You are "lucky" in that your younger one starts out by growling, you have a warning sign you can hear and can intervene immediately if close enough. Sniper gives nothing more than a very very quick dart of the eyes before he explodes which makes it extremely hard to react quick enough to stop it before it starts. He give no other outward signs, no growl, no show of teeth, no tensing even, just a eye dart and BAM.
I'm glad you are reacting on it now and not waiting to see if they work it out, chances are between two males they wouldnt' work it out until someone gets hurt. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4120
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| 08/26/2009 11:56 AM |
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| One thing I have done with all our dogs is feed treats together. Dogs sit next to each other and they are taught to wait their turn and not grab. I also teach manners on retrieves. They are to only retrieve when told to and have to watch the other complete retrieves. We have done this with type of socialization with every dog we have had. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:6938
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| 08/26/2009 6:24 PM |
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| I do pretty much what pixie does with food and treats. All three of mine (2 females and a male) have to sit and wait their turn for food. I also have an order. My alpha, Belle my oldest female. always gets her food first, then Halo, my second female, and then my boy who is the youngest. They know if they aren't sitting in their spot, no food. I also do not allow wild behavior in the house. Whoever starts it goes to their crate. They know the rules too because if I look at them instigator heads to the crate without being told. I the case of my three, Belle is never the instigator and she will not take the bait from either of my other two. It is always either my youngest female or my male. Most of the time it is my male that starts it. Good luck. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
     
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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katrina-za
Pretoria, South Africa
JH
Posts:27
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| 08/27/2009 6:57 AM |
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One thing I have done with all our dogs is feed treats together. Dogs sit next to each other and they are taught to wait their turn and not grab.
All in all we've got 12 dogs and the above is exactly how we've eliminated food aggression. I line them up and hand out treats while saying their names in a rhythmic sing-song type fashion -- "For Petra...and for Aubrey...and for Adelaide...and for Bailey" -- round and round in order. It's a very quick way to teach them to be calm, patient, and tolerant when it comes to food. I'd start them on either side of you and then gradually move them closer together. Anyone gets nasty and treat-time is over. |
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zodiakgsps
NW PA
MH
Posts:1059
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| 08/27/2009 4:38 PM |
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I do the same with my 7 for treats, amazing how quick the pups picked up on it & sit and wait quietly for their turn - which is always last, I treat in order of my packs order.
I also "feed the chickens" when I make popcorn, always have to make 2 bags, one for me & my son & one for the dogs. With popcorn, I scatter the pieces & let them eat it, they never get owly over it. All can eat together peacefully, never had an issue over food.
I do not give raw bones together initially though,,,once they are chewed down some all can be back together w/o a problem.(plus they have to start them in crates, to messy until meat is chewed off) |
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wgspr rescue
Milwaukee, WI
MH
Posts:630
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| 09/03/2009 9:45 AM |
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| The line up for treats works like a charm, just don't forget their order, cuz they will remember! hahaha |
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Lisa C. Rossman
WI GSP Rescue, Inc (wgspr.com)
"Until there are none, rescue just one!"
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Dirtysailor
Western PA
MH
Posts:134
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| 09/04/2009 10:28 AM |
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| I have been trying to get them together more and do the treat lineup. But now to add fuel to the fire my female has gone into heat. So the intensity has really exploded. It is now at the point that they growl at each other on sight through a fence. Then the older one lifts his leg in the youngers direction. I don't even get them near one another. Yet when I am training with other dogs none of this occurs. I have informed my training partners that it has happened but it has never surfaced away from the house at the training area. I think I am gonna keep them apart until the heat is over and then start working back to where they were slowly with a fence in between or someone else to handle the other leash. Isn't timing grand on some of these things. I think they smelled or sensed the heat coming and that it may have started the whole issue. Anyone have any experience like this? |
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Rugergundog
Saginaw Michigan USA
MH
Posts:395
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| 09/04/2009 11:23 AM |
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Some dogs will never jive together. In your case your dogs are prob very much a like in many regards being related that close. The "alpha" gene is prob stong in them both so the battle is on.
My tip would be to make sure the dogs are never allowed to get aggressive. At the first sight of even a temper it has to be stopped. And the dogs must know you are the boss, neither of them are. |
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Saginaw Michigan
Brittany- Ruger
GSP- Kilian |
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Rugergundog
Saginaw Michigan USA
MH
Posts:395
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| 09/04/2009 11:23 AM |
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Some dogs will never jive together. In your case your dogs are prob very much a like in many regards being related that close. The "alpha" gene is prob stong in them both so the battle is on.
My tip would be to make sure the dogs are never allowed to get aggressive. At the first sight of even a temper it has to be stopped. And the dogs must know you are the boss, neither of them are. |
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Saginaw Michigan
Brittany- Ruger
GSP- Kilian |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:6938
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| 09/04/2009 1:52 PM |
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| I do know that dogs will know a bitch is coming in season long before we ever see the first signs. I also know that it is natural for dogs to vie over a bitch that is in season. If the problems started within the last few weeks, that very well could be the problem. Or course, this may have also set up an ongoing situation. At this point I think your plan is a good one as neither one of them will have much of a brain as long as your female is in season. The only think you might want to do is take them both to the place where you train and work them their together. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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snips
n.ga.
MH
Posts:413
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| 09/04/2009 2:38 PM |
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We have many males and they live together in harmony...First thing they understand is WE are the Alpha here, they are trying to establish the Alpha..They got it wrong, YOU should be Alpha. You have to determine who the instigator is and he has to know YOU are in charge...Not him. |
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brenda |
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Dirtysailor
Western PA
MH
Posts:134
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| 10/16/2009 12:13 PM |
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| Need to update this as things aren't getting better. Still searching for advice. This issue is not about food to these dogs. This was confirmed when after an exercise run, the younger one ran right down to the older one in fenced area and started to growl. Now when the older one is out this does not happen he pays no attention to him in the fenced area. And to confirm to all these dogs know I am the Alpha. The younger one is just like a punk kid wants to start with the older one. This problem is worse b/c when at work my wife has a hard time dealing with them. The other thing is the young dog has started growling at his mother, who shows no signs of trying to dominate anything, she cowars away. So how can I end this young dogs behavior. He is fine alone and in the house with people just crazy around the other dogs in the home. That said he has been worked in the field with other dogs and been fine not noticing them only hunting. Sorry to be longwinded but the wife is getting really upset about this. So I need to try something soon. I can kennel him outside but don't really want to exercise this option. Advice appreciated. |
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2671
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| 10/16/2009 12:49 PM |
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| What one of my friends did which worked with her 2 male Labs who turned into fighters when one of our female neighbor dog was in heart,was to neuter one of her males. Neutering one of her males solved the problem . Unless you are going to breed or show them ,no need to put up with male behavior when your female is in heat. Best Wishes to you. |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2671
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| 10/16/2009 12:54 PM |
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| PS: She neutered the Lab who was the biggest trouble maker at aggression!! It Worked. Both male Labes at 10 years old and live in harmony. |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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Somer
Houston, TX
MH
Posts:280
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| 10/16/2009 1:00 PM |
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Is it out of the question to re-home/sell one of the dogs? Otherwise I'd crate and rotate for the time being and not give the dog the opportunity to go after the other one.
Doesn't seem fair to you, the dogs, and especially your wife (if they're "your dogs" vs "our dogs") if it is stressing everyone out. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:6938
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| 10/16/2009 1:35 PM |
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I was going to suggest neutering one or preferrably both dogs, but Marie beat me to it. If you are not going to breed either of them there is no point in keeping them intact. Beyond neutering I would suggest two things: 1) if you can find a good animal behaviorist hire them for a consultation and suggested action plan, 2) there is a book call Aggression In Dogs by Brenda Aloff. Get it and read the section on Dog/Dog Aggression. Also, if you haven't already you need to start training all your dogs in the basic foundation commands (Sit, Down, Stay, Come, Leave It). A strong foundation in those commands will come in very handy in getting past the dog aggression issues you are facing. The final thing you should consider is a consistent exercise routine to wear out both of the perpetrators, especially important when you want to start working on the aggression issues. Remember too that it takes two and although the youngster may appear to you to be the culprit, the other dog likely also has a hand in the aggression that is occurring. Again, read the book as there are some really good suggestions on how to proceed. For now keep the two apart when you are not there to supervise them. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2671
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| 10/16/2009 3:12 PM |
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OMG Bev!! I had the great opportunity to attend a weekend training seminar with Brenda Aloff and hear first hand from her about Canine Body Language Great Seminar, Brenda Aloff has a great sense of humor too. She said it is not as bad having 2 males aggressive at each other as it is 2 females. She jokingly said," that is why we call female dogs Bitches "I bought her" Canine Body Language, interpreting the Native language of the Domestic Dog. book .Should have bought the Aggression book too!! In my German shorthaired Pointers Owners Manual, it says for any Shorthair exhibiting aggressiveness, a thorough physical examination and consultation with a Vet is indicated to rule out underlying medical causes. This book also suggests to return to the basics of command training with or without neutering should help.pg 73. Author: Pinney |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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Dirtysailor
Western PA
MH
Posts:134
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| 10/17/2009 6:29 AM |
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Thanks for the advice. I am going to look for the books. These two dogs are well versed in basic commands and have attained hunting titles. For sure the father is going to be shown after hunting season is over and I want to get the son through at least SH before deciding on showing him or not as he has white on him which I have benn advised is not what judges are looking for, so I want to leave them both intact.
My wifes friend who raises another breed has suggested muzzling the two males and let them have at each other and set their own pecking order and to keep the muzzles on them when together until they work it out. Then transisition to the e-collar eventually and have it ready the first time they have the muzzles off. Any opinions here. I thought that it may encourage the fighting behavior. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4120
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| 10/17/2009 6:45 AM |
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Oh Gosh. Do not follow your friends advice.
Want my honest opinion, well, maybe my opinion is not so good so I'll skip it.
I like snips advice.
I can't really comment on this behavior b/c we have never encountered it. I don't know if it's b/c of our pack leadership and/or the dogs we have owned were of a different temperment.
My younger boy will full out body tackle our older boy,knock him over,drag him to the ground,but Haiko lets him have his way and when he's tired of it lets him know and it's over.
But none of it is ever aggressive. There is a line drawn when aggressive behavior begins.
An aggressive dog would last all about 2 seconds in our home,maybe this is telepathically transfered to the dogs?
Best of luck in this and I hope you find a solution soon,
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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