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Subject: Bean was aggressive
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MegCUser is Offline
Ellensburg, WA
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07/15/2009 9:28 AM  
Posted By pixie bee on 07/15/2009 8:35 AM
...if I were in your shoes I would consider putting her down or in an environment where there can be no further issues,like a farm or country setting...

Rehoming a dog with agression issues in Washington state is opening yourself up for serious liability. My understanding is that if the dog hurts someone in the new home, they can go back and sue the previous owner if the dog was known to be 'dangerous' when it was passed on.

I realize everyone approaches these things differently, but if one of my dogs pulled this kind of stunt without provocation I would probably have to put him/her down. I LOVE my dogs dearly, and I feel that I'm a responsible owner, but as a parent I have a very hard time gambling my child's current home and future educational opportunities for the sake of keeping a pet with severe problems who's antics could wipe us out financially. And then there's the moral responsibility I feel I have for keeping my community reasonably safe and pleasant...

And therein lies the rub: the choices in these cases are personal, but the consequences often impact animals and people with no voice in the decision. Renee loves Bean and is clearly upset, but I'm sure the owner of the little dog that got attacked loves her pet too and is probably REALLY fried.

*sigh* I guess I'm trying to say that words like "love" and "responsibile pet owner" often get tossed around as reasons to keep a problematic dog, but if the owner arrives at a different conclusion it DOES NOT automatically mean they are "irresponsible" or "don't love their pet".

OK, I gotta get ready for work, back later....


Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here!
gsp-fanUser is Offline
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07/15/2009 9:46 AM  
Renee did not go into the whole story about what happened.

Bean was ok with the little dog until the people with the dogs let there other 2 dogs go up behind Bean and let her smell her butt. Then Bean reacted.

Of course the people were upset and tried picking up there dog and the little dog bite the owner in the neck.

I am not sure how many of you have ever met Bean but we had no issues with her and my dogs together and I have 4 of them. One of them being a VERY standoffish GSP.

It is a horrible incident that happened but there is responsibility on both parties side.

Renee & Greg stepped up to the plate and took that responsibility both financial & with Bean.

pixie beeUser is Offline

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07/15/2009 9:54 AM  
I won't speak for any other breed. I don't know what terrier breeders breed their dogs for.
The dogs are bred to know the difference. Any other interpretation is just an excuse for poor behavior.
I don't have a problem with over excited dogs who want to say hello and will bark and jump but aggresson is out of the question.


"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
Pointer FanUser is Offline
Westminster, Colorado
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07/15/2009 10:12 AM  
I have nothing against small dogs. I do get irritated with the owners who have not socialized these dogs properly and let them come running up to your dog jumping and yapping. This has happened to us several times. Fortunately Molly is very laid back. I have also personally been nipped twice by small dogs who were not in anyones's control. Bean was on a leash. It broke. Accidents happen. These people should have kept their dogs away from Bean until they checked with her owners.
Texas BelleUser is Offline
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07/15/2009 10:20 AM  
I am probably going to open a can of worms here and I don't mean too, but from the get go with this post I felt like this was more defensive behavior than aggressive. With gsp-fans Rest of the Story, I feel even more so that this is defensive. It doesn't matter that the other dogs were smaller, if Bean felt they were surrounding her and ganging up on her it put her in a defensive mode and she reacted. Yes, it was an aggressive reaction. Now Renee needs to decide (and I think she already has) how she has to handle the situation. Personally, I would make sure Bean has on a strong collar and a good leash and keep her out of similar situations. I would also continue to work on focus exercises. And most important of all I would recommend that Renee stay very in tune and watchful with Bean in all situations. Of course, I recommend the same things for all dog owners because after all they are dogs and you never know when some situation will cause a dog to react. Even the most predictable of dogs given certain situations will react. They are dogs, not humans.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
MegCUser is Offline
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07/15/2009 10:40 AM  
Posted By gsp-fan on 07/15/2009 9:46 AM
...Of course the people were upset and tried picking up there dog and the little dog bite the owner in the neck...

OK, this is a whole lot different than BEAN causing the damage, and MAJOR thumbs up for Renee picking up the tab since this is a gray area to say the least.


Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here!
TessaGAUser is Offline
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07/15/2009 11:57 AM  
Wow. Interesting!

That's why I alway start my posts with something like "it's difficult to analyze without having seen the incident".

I agree that dog aggression is a serious matter. And living with such a dog is tough because it places all kinds of restrictions on you, the owner as to where you go and when and what to be prepared for. My dog was very much OB trained, and very controllable, so that plus my proactiveness got us through 12 years with no harm done. On the other hand our pitbull that killed the neighbor's dog was put down the same day.

To me it comes down to how controllable is the dog and what environment does the dog live in, and I would base the decision to euthanize on that. Rehoming is never an option in my eyes unless the dog goes to live with Cesar Millan.

I second what Bev said. I would also suggest that Renee be adamant with other dog owners asking them to keep dogs away unless invited. That's the hard part. From my experience, people often ignore such a request.






To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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carlower1User is Offline
Kansas
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07/15/2009 12:12 PM  
GSP Fan.. thanks for the rest of the story!

It sounds to me that the other dogs were actually the aggressors and Bean was reacting too it....

Most people have a hard time understanding that small dogs can be aggressive and intimidating to even a bigger dog...It sounds as if this little dog bit the owner, and was nipping at Bean, so bean defended herself, not the other way around

Carrie
stlbirddogsUser is Offline
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07/15/2009 12:17 PM  

Years ago we had a Lab that was fine with other dogs until she was attacked twice by the neighbors little yappy dog that they allowed to run loose.  The little dog was out of control and drew blood on Sunny's ankles and chest.  After that Sunny went into defensive mode with the attitude that if she got them first they wouldn't get her.  She had no problems with big dogs, but the little ones scared the heck out of her.  We did a lot of obedience training and worked with a trainer to get her to focus attention away from other dogs.  She got better but never got over it completely especially around small yappy dogs. 

We weren't the only ones that had problems with that dog. Uunfortunaletly after us and several other neighbors told them to keep the thing in their yard they only got the hint after the police became involved when the dog nipped a kid.


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BEANSUser is Offline
Washington state
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07/15/2009 12:23 PM  

 YES that is the story, I just did not want it to look like I was blaming the other dogs......

 

 


Renee'
vnrose53User is Offline

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07/15/2009 1:38 PM  

Chelsea is not what I would call dog-aggressive but more than once she has been, in my opinion, forced to show "back off!" aggression towards  (usually) a small dog that just wouldn't stop harassing her or respect her boundaries.  Some of them just do not get the point and as others have said, their owners tend not to enforce good behavior because they're small and "harmless."  She has never drawn blood but a small dog is just vulnerable to a big dog's bite.   Similarly, a friend was recently very upset when her young Aussie, on a leash, "pinned" a cocker spaniel that had run out its front door and was charging him (and my friend), barking furiously.  She took Toby to a trainer who evaluated him with other well-behaved dogs and said "that's not an aggressive dog."   I'm aware (and so is my friend) that we have to be alert to our surroundings when we are out with our dogs and avoid unrestrained, ill-behaved dogs, but we don't think WE have the problem. 

MegCUser is Offline
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07/15/2009 1:58 PM  
Posted By BEANS on 07/15/2009 12:23 PM

 YES that is the story, I just did not want it to look like I was blaming the other dogs......

Dogs get in a bickering match, an owner picks up a small dog that's involved, and it bites the crap outta her... who knows who actually started the bickering, but the teeth that did the damage belonged to the ankle biter. So YEAH I'd blame the little dog!

At the mushing events I'm at, if dogs on anybody's truck start going at it we all run in to get it stopped before a dog gets hurt. The owner may or may not be around and we'd all appreciate someone doing the same for us. Sled dogs are normally pretty laid back so it's reletively rare, but sometimes the exciting atmosphere of the event amps them up into behavior they wouldn't normally participate in, or the musher is in a hurry and puts dogs next to each other that shouldn't be, or trucks inadvertently park too close, etc. Anyway... NOBODY puts hands down there, we wade in stomping with heavy insulated carhartts and boots, and possibly waving a stick, food ladle, poop scoop, or whatever we can grab quickly. Many experienced dog people sport impressive scars and stories from breaking up fights anyway, often as not from the dog that's NOT instigating it just because they've got so much fear and adrenaline going when someone attempts to drag them to safety.

The funny one was at an event where someone had a bunch of Swingly type hounds packed in on tight drops around the truck... the musher had gone off to deal with something and I was standing in the bed of my truck about 30 feet away getting gear out. I suddenly saw two young looking males on the front fender rear up, lock front feet at the chest with mouths open and lips pulled back.... and basically stand there lip to lip cussing at each other. I instinctively stood up and yelled "HEY!!!" at them. The look on their face as they were still reared up with front legs locked together was priceless: "oh crap, we're busted...." and immediately they put all 4 on the floor, looking rather sheepish, lol.


Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here!
DeeDee_TXUser is Offline
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07/15/2009 8:41 PM  

I've refrained from posting on this topic until now. I encountered a similar situation today as my neighbor allowed her 7 pound poodle mix to run around the apartment complex unleashed.  It took all my strength to keep Sophie from hurting Benjy, accidentally or otherwise.  She is a 35+ pound large breed puppy and you just never know. 

It started in our hallway where Benjy ran towards us (the dogs have never met or played before) with a forward body posture barking.  Soph remained stoic as the neighbor took her time locking her door before coming to collect her dog.  Sophie got excited when she finally came to collect Benjy and we made sure to wait until she got down the stairs and out the outside gate before going down.  Unbeknown to me, Benjy was still unleashed in the street and came up to the fence barking and trying to fit between the bars.  It took him about 30 seconds to wrangle his way under the fence to the side we were on while his owner made a lame attempt to call him back from 50 feet away.  Needless to say Sophie was going crazy wanting a chance to play and jump and scratched the hell out of my legs as I tried to restrain her.  I know she did not have the intention to hurt her Benjy, she plays with an Italian Greyhound all the time and just got amped up.  Nevertheless, something could have easily gone awry and I would have been the one who was blamed because I have the "big dog." 

It really is infuriating.  I work my tail off trying to keep my dog behaved and being aware of my surroundings only to have someone else foil my efforts.  The neighbor's reaction was "Benjy, you are not acting appropriately, it is time to go on your leash."  Well no s***!!! It was time when you walked out in public with a dog that doesn't have a recall and approaches in an unfriendly manner.

Sorry for the vent.  I understand how sometimes unfortunate situations arise and it seems Bean was the wrong dog to tick off.  I empathize with you, Rene.  Good luck to anyone else who faces an irresponsible dog owner, no matter the size of the dog. 


Dee Dee
Texas BelleUser is Offline
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07/15/2009 9:01 PM  
Dee Dee unfortunately there are allot of them out there and most seem to be the proud owners of small dogs (aren't they so cute). Those of us with bigger dogs seem to be more aware of the dangers and behave accordingly. Again, you can never be too careful or cautious with your dog. I understand the vent entirely. I live two houses down from the proud owner of a Westie. I am sure the dog would be fine with a better owner. However, this owner seems to be totally unaware of the leash laws in our city and common courtesy in general. He lets his dog out off leash to roam the neighborhood and poop in everyone elses yard. One day Belle and I were in our front yard. Belle was off leash and minding her own business. The Westie of course came down to our yard. Belle being Belle immediately came and stood by me and looked between me and the dog like Mom do something. So I yelled at the dog to go home and get out of my yard. The owner immediately came barreling down the street yelling at me not to let Belle hurt his dog. Now understand at this point Belle was sitting calmly next to me letting this nasty little dog jump all over her. I told him that his dog was off leash and the city had a leash law and if he didn't get his dog pronto I was going to catch his dog and hold him while I called the cops. He shut up and took his dog off. A few weeks later the same dog was hit by a car, and even with that the idiot guy still lets his dog roam. I will guarantee if something had happened Belle would have been accused of all kinds of terrible things. Sorry for the vent, but DeeDee's post just triggered the memory. Ugh!!!

Now I will apologize for lumping all small dog owners together because I know there are some that do not do this, and likewise there are some irresponsible large dog owners. Funny how it seems to be an owner issue.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
DesertRoseKennelUser is Offline

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07/15/2009 10:49 PM  

When I was a kid there was a lady on the block who would walk her dog (meaning, she had her own very nice big yard but wanted her dog to crap elsewhere) down our block and never picked up any poo. My dad organized the neighbors to save it for two weeks. At the end of the two weeks, he had a brown grocery sack probably half full (no joke - she must have fed that dog Ol Roy) of dog crap. He waited for her to pass, and presented the bag in very chivalrous style to her saying "This is yours, the neighbors all got together and saved it for you". She never walked on our block again.

Jean


"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
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EllegirlUser is Offline

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07/16/2009 6:54 AM  

Reminds me of an incident we had at our local nursing home,  When we certify dogs for the therapy program the second part of certification is three visits at the nursing home.  Well this particular nursing home has an open door policy, meaning anyone can bring their dog for a visit.  We had three teams (dog and handler) and were walking down the hall when a crazy, poodle came running down the hall barking and nipping at the legs of the potential therapy dogs.  The owner was an elderly women running after the poodle trying to catch her.  We told our group of teams to turn around and keep walking and keep your dog focused on you! Thankfully we had no incident but it could of turned ugly. 

I don't care what kind of dog people have big or little, if they are well mannered I will like them, they can be the ugliest dog ever but I will still like them.  The thing I despise is a poor mannered dog. 

We recently had our yearly meeting with TDV.  We had a barbecue outside with about 20-25 dogs 75% were little dogs- all extremely well behaved.  It was truly amazing to see that many dogs together with no problems at all - a total reflection on the handlers.

Renee-so sorry this had to happen to you and bean.  You worked so hard with bean and are a responsible owner, sometimes things can get out of hand in life and as we all know life is not fair at times...I wish you and bean well.

Ace1cappuccinoUser is Offline
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07/16/2009 11:29 AM  
I had two experiences like this. One was a newfundland (spelled wrong i m sure) trying to get on top of Mocha. I think he was twice the size of both of us. He wouldn't leave her alone, she kept spinning around and backing up to me. I was pushing him off and he was growling at me. The girl who was on his leash - seriously this girl was like 50# if that. He was walking or dragging her. I started yelling at the dog and finally the girls mom came over and took him away. this was after like 10 minutes. Mocha didn't get agressive but defensive. One of the only times she has ever growled.
The other time was with Belle. we were out and a little pair of "ankle biters" kept running up at her from behind. I tried to scare them away but Belle was not hapy at all. She growled and barked at them. Never grabbing ahold of them but I truly think she would have if the owner didn't remove them.
Why do people sit there and watch their dogs tormment other ones? It is just ignorance in my opinion. I tell their owners that as well.

Cornell's GSP'S- Mocha cappuccino, Lili Belle Lotte, Sir Leopold Vom Hunter 1, Lil Miss Lotte Doddi, Ace Hunter Twisted Mister(GSP'S) PhotobucketPhotobucket
sjgz314User is Offline
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07/16/2009 2:12 PM  
I can't remember which poster commented that dogs' behavior is a reflection of the owners, but that is so right. We have no problems with Axle and other dogs (he is such a good dog) so we frequent the dog parks in the city. But there are some parks that I just won't go to because the owners usually there have never taught their dogs manners and fail to step in when necessary. I don't want to put my guy in a situation where it's likely that he'll have to defend himself. He can put up with a lot, but won't tolerate being humped (really, who would tolerate that!) Unfortunately, it's not always so easy to avoid dogs with bad owners.

As an aside, our last dog was very uncomfortable with other dogs, so we tailored our activities to her temperment. We never took her to dog parks or put her in a situation where she was around a lot of strange dogs. She did eventually get used to a few particular other dogs such that she would tolerate going on walks with them, but only after giving her space and time to get used to them.

Renee - good luck with Beans. Just keep doing your best with her.

-Susie
zimbassUser is Offline

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07/17/2009 5:13 AM  

My last GSP Jacob that past at 10 yrs had years 3 to 9 of his life on a short leash.  For some reason he didn't want anything to do with any dog during those years, he was VERY aggressive towards them, fortunately for me I caught this behavior before incident and took precautions.  The last year and a half of his life he settled and made friends with the neighborhood dogs. I guess Jake was making peace, we could actually have neighbors over with there dogs off leash and never had an incident, it almost brought tears to ones eyes to see Jake interact like a normal dog for once. 

 

 


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BEANSUser is Offline
Washington state
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07/18/2009 4:51 PM  

UPDATE

we have been walking a normal routine ( our trail has various obstacles )  But today I was really in tune with Bean and her attitude

 we walked our OLD route ( where she had been on a flexi & allowed to wander )

 we had new rules ( same as our trail walk ) meaning heel and we're on a six footer...we walked about an hour, then met up with a Doxie on a flexi, I told Bean "leave it " because she does not need to meet every dog she sees and we walked side by sorta side ( the flexi )...with Bean not even looking at the dog

The dog she has walked with 4 or five months back & it is my Mom's wiener dog

Bean did not even give me cause for concern

I felt really great about that

then we went the other 1/2 of our walk & there was  J Russell off leash.............Bean saw it..........I said leave it & we continued on our route....the dog never approached us

But I felt great about Beans demeanor

we're just not a meet and greet happy lovey dovey...dog pair

   Thanks again for all the feedback

 and I did buy the book "the other end of the leash"  trying to save it for our camping trip....BUT I keep picking it up and reading !!!!!!!!!!!!


Renee'
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