BEANS
Washington state
MH
Posts:1119
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| 07/13/2009 5:08 PM |
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guys...haven't posted here for quite awhile
Been doing well on our 8 mile trail walks ( limited aggresion )
towards people or other dogs......walking with other dogs
people/skate boards/ bikes...strolers w/ howling lovely children
went on vacation ( 2nd time AT this park )
this time took grands ( 8 yrs and 13 yrs )...
I emerged from the back of our RV ( we have TOY HAULER ) IT AMOUNTS TO A big garage in the rear of our RV that our motorcycles sit in
as I came out BEAN attacked a group of 3 little yappy dogs
I had her on a flexi
IT BROKE
she attacked one of the dogs
$2000 dollars later ( Greg took that dog to the ER vet )
My question
is
WHAT IS YOUR CALL ON THAT ???
Does that make Bean a Viscious animal ??
I was so guilt ridden
that I did not want to share
I've made some correctional ( EVASIVE) moves
BUT Bean is NOT a bad dog
I really need input
Sorry to have been so non active on the board ( last 6 months )
but I really need your help |
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Renee'
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everbell
Kanata, ON
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Posts:3180
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| 07/13/2009 5:20 PM |
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My experience has been that the little dogs almost ask for it sometimes. Behaviour that would be considered inappropriate for our big dogs is tolerated, and even rewarded, in small dogs because "they are so cute"!
Having said that it sounds like you took appropriate action. I wouldn't necessarily consider Bean a dangerous dog on one incident, but having never met her, it's difficult to say. I would say continue to work with her, and use a more durable leash when she is outside (nylon or leather).
P.S. Nice to have you back! I was wondering where you'd been  |
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Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7924
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| 07/13/2009 5:28 PM |
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I don't think that makes Beans a mean dog, just small animal aggressive. You probably will not ever be able to trust her with small animals. GSPs are known to be cat sharp and some are small dog sharp as well. Those that are not were either raised with or around small animals from a very early age. I have a friend who had a shorthair that was very laid back. A friend ask him to keep his pet cockatiel (in a cage). The friend left the bird in the cage in my friends office. Later when my friend went into the office all he found was a tipped over cage and some feathers and a GSP laying on the dog bed.
I think all you need to do is be more careful with Bean and get a leash that won't break. Be aware of your surroundings and attuned to the presence of small animals. Don't feel bad, you did the right thing by the small dog and now you know so you can make sure it never happens again. I always tell my puppy owners that they need to be aware of their dog and other animals around them. Dogs are animals and you never know how one will react to a given situation. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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BEANS
Washington state
MH
Posts:1119
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| 07/13/2009 5:34 PM |
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Funny thing we walk with a sheperd mix..he is so layed back
his Mom has added a small ( cocker ) 4 yr old to her familywe all walk together....but I do use a pinch collar on Bean, she seems fine with the smaller dog.... I was just stumped & DEVASTATED
We walked in the same park wit Rebecca's GUS & the rest of her crew....they are very sweet....we just walked about and had np incidents
I am puzzled |
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Renee'
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BEANS
Washington state
MH
Posts:1119
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| 07/13/2009 5:47 PM |
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Thanks for the support
cuz I have been feeling like crap
even though I have had Bean back in the saddle
and no incidents.....I still felt like crap !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we are a GSP force on our trail system...
I have to say
I've noticed an over abundance of GOLDENS that are learning manners.....what is so great is>>> they seem to be with retired folk ( who ) really seem to be training them to be great trail passers by on the trail
I hear " leave it " good girl " and the owners seem to be sooooooooooo proud
when we pass them.... we say gooooooooooooooooooooooood as welll
we really see a loyt of improvemet on a daily basis
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Renee'
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TessaGA
Georgia
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Posts:2387
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| 07/13/2009 7:01 PM |
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Hard to analyze it without having seen it....$ 2000 is no small change so the injuries must have been serious. My husband once paid $ 3000 when his pitbull attacked the neighbors' yapping, yapping dog...then the dog died.. Those are bad situations.
I lived with a dog aggressive dog for 12 years. We managed, and she never hurt or killed another animal. You just have to be very proactive. Try not to be apprehensive or nervous (that's easier said than done), make sure Bean is securely attached to you, check collar and leash for soundness (I once had a leather leash break on me ), skip the flexi lead, and keep working with her as you have, from what I remember, you've come a long way. Just be aware of the "potential" that is there, and be cautious. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Pointer Fan
Westminster, Colorado
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Posts:954
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| 07/13/2009 7:03 PM |
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| I think there is just something about small YAPPY dogs that upsets other dogs and some people (me included). I think Bean probably took it as an act of agression toward her and I really don't think dogs recognize size. |
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MegC
Ellensburg, WA
MH
Posts:989
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| 07/13/2009 9:19 PM |
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I've been musing on this on the way home tonight... I realize this may be hair-splitting, but I don't think it's productive to think of Bean or her behavior as "good" or "bad". Dogs don't have a moral compass like we do. They just ARE. It's one of the things that makes them both charming and occasionally frustrating.
My dogs just killed a pack rat, and there was MUCH rejoicing. But not so much if they grilled a cat. How can they know the difference? Nailing another dog this severely might be a different story... or not... was she doing it out of prey drive, or thinking she was protecting 'her' trailer/kids, or she thought those bossy little dogs deserved to be taught a lesson, or just because those yappy little things were spewing dog-cussing and she was tired of hearing it? Or...????
And really, the end result is the same: you get to decide if you want to live with the behavior, if you can change it, how much you can change it, how you will/won't change it... then you make choices. Doing nothing is one option, more training is another, getting a pro trainer involved is another, and so on.
FWIW I might ask a vet about legal liability. The state has 'potentially dangerous dog' laws and this episode may have gotten Bean into some level of that classification, which could spill over into some snarls with your homeowner's insurance among other things. |
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Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
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Posts:1789
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| 07/13/2009 9:25 PM |
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I think large dogs recognize size more so than small dogs. And by no means do I think this makes Bean an agressive dog. You just are now going to have to watch your surroundings more than you use to I think. I know for a fact that my big dogs know the difference between a small dog and a big dog. Our American Pit Bull Terriers think the little dogs are "toys" and sometimes Phoenix does as well. They are small, furry creatures that move quickly and they think they are verment! No matter how much I tend to agree with that I know that it is someone elses beloved pet so of course keep my dogs under control. Sometimes that means pinch collar, sometimes that means not even going to go where we were headed on a walk etc. Whatever I have to do to keep my dogs out of a situation that I don't know how the little dog is going to act or if the owner is going to restrain it. I have had more little dogs try to chase me on my horses and chase me while walking my dogs than any other dogs. I tell you what turn a horse around and chase a little dog and you will see that sucker RUN! (don't worry I would never let the horse actually hurt them but they gotta get some fear put into them somehow!) lol.
Keep working with her and just be more aware of yourself, how you are handleing the dog and your surroundings and the equipment you are using (leash, collar etc.) and you should be fine. As long as your dog is on a leash and you have control over her if a small dog comes up and pick a fight there is not much you can do!
Keep up the good work. I am sure you are fine!
How is the little dog d0ing now and how did it's owners react? |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7924
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| 07/13/2009 9:35 PM |
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| I was thinking about this tonight while training and sometimes the opposite can also happen. Big goofy dog walks over to small dog and small dog goes after the big dog. I wonder if that small dog may have been signaling some aggressive intent to Bean as well. In any case, I am always very careful with my dogs whether they are going up to a person or another dog. I never take anything for granted. I think that is a lesson that all dog owners need to take to heart, even if you dog has never done anything. There is always a first time. And as several posters mentioned they are still dogs, not four legged humans. I would suggest a book written by Patricia McConnell called The Other End of the Leash. It might give some insight on what was going on with Bean and also some tips for future encounters. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Navilla
Lawrenceburg, IN
MH
Posts:980
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| 07/14/2009 12:00 AM |
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| Awww, big hug for you. We are here for you! |
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Caryl, Dave, Baby Logan, and Osiris
Lawrenceburg, Indiana
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 07/14/2009 7:18 AM |
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Some good points came up.
I would check into the local laws (does your county post the codes online)?
Also, I remember once asking an animal control officer, what would happen if I walk my dog-aggressive American Bulldog on a leash and a non-leashed dog comes up and my dog hurts or kills it. She said nothing would happen to me - because we have a leash law, and I was abiding by it. It was that clear cut.
Of course, I didn't want that to happen, I didn't want another dog to get hurt and I also didn't want to hurt the image of my breed any further, so when I saw dogs on the loose I would simply take a different route. I was always scanning for dogs on the loose. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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evanston
Evanston, IL
MH
Posts:165
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| 07/14/2009 11:39 AM |
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Renee,
FWIW, my first GSP was agressive at times to small dogs. Once in a dog park he grabbed a yorkie and started to shake it. Luckily I was right there and stopped him before the dog was injured. But like you, I was devastated - I could never approach the yorkie's owner again because I was so embarrassed over Sport's behavior. Did that episode mean he was a bad dog - no. He was always great around little kids and other dogs - it was just the little ones that got him going. Others have already offerred good advice, so I won't add to it. But I was very vigilant afterwards and always tried to watch out for any situation that had the potential to spark his agressiveness. Good luck with Bean - sounds like you're doing the right things.
Larry |
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Life is not complete without a dog! |
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snips
n.ga.
MH
Posts:413
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| 07/14/2009 12:23 PM |
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Agression to me is the same, be it a big dog or small yappy one...It is NOT tolerated...period. That dog would be wearing a choke chain and first sign, he (or she) would be hanging in the air. It would stop. |
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brenda |
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Marie
Wisconsin
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Posts:2721
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Marie
Wisconsin
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Posts:2721
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DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
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| 07/14/2009 9:37 PM |
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I hate to rain on the parade here, but I second what snips says. Aggression is never acceptable, PERIOD. It's not something to be brushed off, accompanied by smiley faces. Besides the fact that a $2000 vet bill is no laughing matter, now there is a documented history of serious aggression. If you are going to keep Beans, I highly recommend you make ABSOLUTELY SURE she does not have any opportunity to do this again. Up to and including muzzling her in public places. If she attacks another dog or something else, and you get sued, you will not be able to defend yourself in a court of law. Please, please be careful.
Jean |
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"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
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BEANS
Washington state
MH
Posts:1119
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| 07/15/2009 7:54 AM |
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Thank you for all the responses
I feel that I have made the right decision for us, The way I saw it I had three choices, Put Bean down.....be a totally irresponsible human being and re home her, or take responsibility for her and the rest of her time on this earth
I accept the responsibilty, and while it is somewhat the way her over two years have been with us, I'm just certain that she will need a tight leash, and never be a meet and greeter.
As many of you know I have posted about Beans progress...when I first got her, she was very out of control, when she saw other dogs. The progress is to the point that when we walk in public she is on a sit stay ( if we stop to chat ) I walk with another person and two dogs...they are allowed to have contact with passerbys periodically...depending on the situation. BEAN IS NOT, but she sits and behaves during the interactions. I focus her on me and her chicken, and she is always on a pinch collar. If she begins to focus or react towards another dog, she is corrected....
The incident at the park would NEVER have happened if that damn leash had not broke......and NEVER again will I use a flexi !!! |
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Renee'
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 07/15/2009 8:35 AM |
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If you have been working on her obedience then maybe you could try this method. Carry a retreive object with you,only use this object for walks,when she is not 'doing her business' she is to carry the object in her mouth,when you see another dog you could heel/ sit her,if she drops the object or breaks the heel/sit you can correct her for breaking an obedience command and not necessarily for aggression or foward motion toward a dog. This will/may teach her that a command is a command and she must control herself or she will get a correction. If she is a cooparative dog she will want to please you more than go toward another dog. You MUST enforce the commands,tho. No wishy-washy on this. If she drops the object she must get ear pinched or collar stim to pick it up, same for breaking sit/heel, it must be a no nonsense attitude from you.
I would do this everytime she is outside,even if there are no dogs around. This way you don't have to reach for the object when you see a dog,it's already in her mouth.
Correcting for breaking a command is much better then forcing her to stop her foward motion toward another dog.
I also feel like Brenda and Jean.
There is no such thing as being small dog sharp. Small animal sharp yes, this is a different part of the brain. Dogs know the difference and it is just plain aggression. Thankfully, the little yappy-thingy wasn't killed.
I commend you for taking on the responsibility,personally, if I were in your shoes I would consider putting her down or in an environment where there can be no further issues,like a farm or country setting setting.
Best of luck and keep us up to date,
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 07/15/2009 9:02 AM |
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How many of you who say a dog knows the difference between a small dog and a small other animal have owned breeds other than a GSP? The reason I ask is because it is VERY VERY VERY evident in the terrier breeds that a dog can have small dog agression and not large dog agression. How do you expect a dog who is a terrier and was bred to go after small animals to dicifer from a distance a small dog versus a squirl, rabit, cat etc.? In their eyes a small animal is something they are suppose to go after. It is in their terrier blood. I know we are not talking about a terrier breed of dog on this thread but seriously why would this be any different for a breed that is suppose to be game sharp. I understand different animals smell differently but I know GSP's also use their eyes when locating game so a small dog could become victom.
Please don't think I am saying this behavior is acceptable as it isn't and it needs to be made sure that it is kept under control. But just because a dog is small dog or dog agressive at all does not mean they should be put down. They just have to be managed differently.To me it sounds like Bean's owner realizes this and is taking the right steps to manage Bean. But there should be no reason the dog should be put down because it is dog agressive. Human agressive is a different matter but dog agressive should not warrent putting a dog down. IMO. |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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