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Central.Wa.GSPs
MH
Posts:314
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| 06/24/2009 10:46 PM |
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So we went to visit our friends today and they have a 6 month old gsp male (already altered) he is 1 month older then Lily and he is PHYSCO. He doesn't obey, they have done all the right training, he doesn't respond to shock collar, and he is out of hand. Lily is AMAZING compared to him. He won't come, sit, stay, he is so bullheaded and thinks he can do whatever he wants. He took of down the canal and three miles later we finally caught up to him (mind you my two dogs are back on our friends acreage sitting and waiting for me to come back) I tried to work with him but nothing. NOTHING works. I can't stress it enough. What should they do. He is a TERROR. Gah so frustrating. Advice for my friends! |
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-Jessica-
*Bailey* GSP
*Lily* GSP
* RIP: Maggie Mae* GSP
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 06/24/2009 10:59 PM |
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First, I would not let him off leash. If you can't get him back he is not ready to be off the leash. I would then start working him every day several times a day on sit, down, stay, come, etc. The key here is consistency, especially with a hard head. The first time you give the command he has to mind, if not then you have to make him do whatever the command was. Anticipate him. If you say sit and you know he won't you should be pulling up on the leash and pushing down on his behind. Do not take any guff off this dog. You might also want to put a pinch collar on him if he isn't already using one as it will give a really quick correction.
I would also make this dog earn everything. If he wants to eat, he has to sit. If he wants to go out he has to sit. Nothing is free. By the same token if he does good you need to reward him. Let him know when he does good. At first all of this will be hard, but your friend has to perservere. It won't be long and the dog will realize who is boss.
With this dog the trainer and dog should always be setup to succeed. Do not give a command that you cannot reinforce. The trainer must always be in control.
I do not know how long it will take before your friend will be able to let this dog off leash, but err on the side of caution. Do not let him off too early or you will likely have a backslide with training. Be patient.
Good luck and let us know how things are going. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Central.Wa.GSPs
MH
Posts:314
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| 06/24/2009 11:05 PM |
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| Her training schedule for him is this. They exercise on leash for a hour each morning. They do a 20 minute training session. He eats. Then he lounges around the house. Lunch time do another 20 minute training session. Evening hour exercise on leash for an hour. Then another 20 minute training session. If she doesn't let him off leash to exercise running around the yard he gets even more PSHYCO in the house. I will tell her to get the pinch collar for him but bajeezes! I was so happy to be headed home lol. Bev I emailed her what you let me know. Thank You! |
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-Jessica-
*Bailey* GSP
*Lily* GSP
* RIP: Maggie Mae* GSP
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 06/24/2009 11:42 PM |
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I suspect, she is letting him off the hook on some things and so he is taking advantage. If that is the case, she needs to be much stricter. Letting him off leash in the backyard where he can't escape is fine, but do not use his recall command as he won't come yet. Or if she does and he does not come, she has to go get him. Right now, it seems that the dog is the head of the household and is running everything. The work you did probably would work if you were there everyday, but you are only coming onto the scene in the middle and you are not there to reinforce consistently. Her routine is good, but mix in training at other times as well. I never miss an opportunity to train. If my dogs wants a piece of popcorn they have to do something to get it. If they want some attention they have to sit before I pet them. I am in control and they know it.
I also suspect he is not getting enough exercise. I would suggest throwing a ball or frisbee, maybe biking him, or if she has a treadmill she could train him to walk on the treadmill. Also more mental stimulation might help. Play find games with him. Hide and seek is also a good game for improving recalls. If there is somewhere she can take him to swim, that is also excellent exercise. Just recently I discovered that my dogs love to play tether ball. I tied a rope to a tree and attached a jolly ball. They will spend long periods of time bopping the ball with their nose or tugging on the rope/ball. I have also been known to feed the squirrels which brings them into the yard, then the dogs have a blast chasing them. The squirrels always cooperate because they love to terrorize and tease the dogs. Of course, once in a while the dogs catch a squirrel which is not good for that squirrel. Just tell your friend to be creative with games. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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MegC
Ellensburg, WA
MH
Posts:989
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| 06/25/2009 12:43 AM |
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You really didn't get to meet Rogan aka "Bat Rastard" or "The Destroyer of Worlds" did you... heh.... Dittoing pretty much what Bev is saying. He's probably going to need to get on a very strict 'nothing in life is free' program, and he may have to stay on it perminantly.
Feel free to have them contact me. If he's everything you say he is, dogs like this can be outstanding performers and fun pets IF you harness that stubborn energy and never ever flinch from confrontation. The problem honestly is that most trainers aren't anticipating this much of a handful at this early an age. |
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Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 06/25/2009 7:15 AM |
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From the description it looks like all is on track in regards to exercise, training but without having watched this firsthand, here are my thoughts/questions:
1. What kind of exercise does he get on the leash for on hour? Just a walk? Fetch on a check-cord? Jogging, or running along on a bike? Just walking for an hour on the leash , while it is sometimes the exercise my pup got and still gets, may not be enough for him to release his energy.
2. How about exercising him for 30 minutes or one hour OFF leash (in a secure yard) before training? (BUT: never practice the recall when he's off leash unless you can enforce it, so they may want to put a long check cord on him during off leash exercise if they want to do a recall or two.)
3. What does the 20-minute training session looks like? Maybe it's too formal? Does the dog enjoy it? Or is the dog bored? Are the corrections well-timed?
4. How about incorporating little training moments into the one hour of exercise? While I make sure I don't constantly interrupt her "fun time" with commands, you can "naturally" weave in a command here and there, to be instantly rewarded with...more fun time. Works great with Tessa, I don't think she even knows she's being trained.
5. I would skip the e-collar for now. Instead, I strongly recommend the pinch collar, but they have to learn how to use it correctly.
6. What are the family dynamics? Single household, multiple family members? If multiple, does EVERYone consistently enforce the commands? Everytime?
To me it sounds like a combination of having a real live one (and I do believe there are some GSPs that are just more live than others) and him not being clear on what is expected of him. I would suggest to find a really experienced dog trainer (that has worked for a long time and with a variety of dogs) that can observe both dog and handler, can correct the handler if needed, and look in their bag of tricks for a way to get through to him. Sometimes it takes the littlest of adjustment in timing or type of correction that can do wonders (I always take my pups to the local dog school here for that very reason).
Also, he is now approaching adolescence. They are in for a wild ride!
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 06/25/2009 7:16 AM |
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Your friends needs to understand that her training sessions are way to long. She lost the dog after 10 minutes.After the first 10-15 minutes the dog is not learning anymore. Then, your friend has to determine if the dog has grapsed the basics,I think from your post the dog has not begun to understand what is required of him. The teacher cannot blame the student.And the e-collar? I don't like the sound of that. Maybe he is a slow maturing dog.
Anyhow, w/o a way to recall him he should not be off leash.
If the dog is not learning in 3 sessions a day something is wrong with the training method.
A dog can learn the basics of sit and recall in 2 minutes.
I would break down the sessions so that she is teaching 1 command a week or however long it takes her to get the basics taught to the dog.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Rugergundog
Saginaw Michigan USA
MH
Posts:395
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| 06/25/2009 1:07 PM |
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| Work him through his belly. A hungry dog will do a lot for that treat! Train with treats and his belly. Force at such a young age could just cause other problems. My GSP was (is) very pig headed as well. |
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Saginaw Michigan
Brittany- Ruger
GSP- Kilian |
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Central.Wa.GSPs
MH
Posts:314
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| 06/25/2009 8:09 PM |
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Sorry I haven't been able to post back to all the posts. I am gunna try and cover most of what people asked in blurbs.
His hour exercise is a run the whole hour. They are on 2.5 acres and none of it is fenced so the back yard exercise off leash doesn't exist because he takes off. Its a family household and their 18 year old son is very *ss to the dog. I couldn't believe it. He is so rude to his mother about the dog and so its only the father and mother that are dynamic with him. They bought him a pinch collar today. For all of you that have seen Marley & Me, Charlie (the dog's name) is Marley x's 10. I am considering taking the pup for a week or two and working with him. These are dear friends of ours and we go and visit them 5X'S monthly and can't and won't afford or allow for their male to drag our two dogs around by the ears (which he does and I am surprised that Bailey didn't give him a good nip to knock it off). If I didn't answer any other questions please re ask them or anything else. Thank you all for your great advice too. I emailed all this to our friends! |
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-Jessica-
*Bailey* GSP
*Lily* GSP
* RIP: Maggie Mae* GSP
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 06/25/2009 9:57 PM |
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You know it might be good for you to take the dog and work him for a week or so. Also, your dogs can do their own form of correction with him which will help too. However, you may find that he responds to you, but when he goes back to your friend it is business as usual.
In any case, I think I think the root of the problem is exercise. I would get a long check cord and some leather gloves and work him just like you would a horse in a round pin. Let him run on that check cord in a great big circle. The leather gloves are so your friend doesn't get rope burn because he is very likely to try to bolt for a while. I really think his biggest issue is exercise. I know he is only 6 months, but just to get this dog exercise I would bike him on a dirt road some as well. Also, is there a fenced area around they can use, like a dog park or a school play area, maybe a little league field, anywhere he can burn off the energy? Maybe they could put in a dog run. Anything to get this boy some exercise. Get creative, tie a tire to a rope and let him drag it. He won't be able to run far with that tied to him.
I also think the idea of using food as a motivator like Ruger suggested is also a good idea. The only problem is this dog may be obsessive about food especially if hungry which creates its own kind of training problem.
Based on what you said about the 18 year old and the way he treats his mom, I am wondering if the dog may not be reacting similarly. Is your friend a strong willed person and is she taking command of the dog. No nonsense kind of strong, or does she let the dog get away with stuff. Most dogs that take advantage of the owners do it because the owners allow it.
I also agree with pixie, if she is drilling, or attempting to drill this dog, for 20 minutes she is probably loosing him at 10 and he starts acting out. I would work him several times a day, maybe one time for sits, another time for downs, later some heeling, but never more than 5 or 10 minutes. If she does this she needs to make it fun, but she also has to give the command once and accept nothing but what she is asking for. I would start in the house, not outside, in an area with few distractions. If he sits when she asks, she needs to really reward. And always stop on a success. She needs to be consistent and train everyday. Also, when not doing formal training, training should still be worked into his everyday existence. Nothing is free. He has to earn it. My dogs learn pretty quickly when I ask them to do something and they do not do the exercise right, I can say nope you didn't earn it and they know what that means, no reward.
I know I have rambled a bit and repeated some of what I have already posted, but I really just want to help this dog. I wish you didn't live so far away as I would love to work with this boy. I love challenges in dog training. Please keep us posted and keep the questions and info coming as something you post may reveal a clue as to how to get this dog and owner on the right track.
You know the more I think about it, I think I would try the tire on a rope thing. Of course, they would have to work with him to get him to pull the tire. Also, they would have to supervise and not leave him out alone with the rope and tire attached.
Good luck to you and your friend. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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MegC
Ellensburg, WA
MH
Posts:989
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| 06/25/2009 10:30 PM |
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If you get him I'd love to meet this lil' rastard. If your girls get tired of him he can come over here and get Ms Sargent Dulcie to thump him a time or two, lol...
My internet has been on the fritz for the last 48 hours so feel free to call me. |
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Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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Central.Wa.GSPs
MH
Posts:314
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| 06/25/2009 10:45 PM |
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Bev, the tire and the rope things sounds like a great idea. But to bounce a few ideas off you. 1 should he be wearing a harness (he has one) so it doesn't choke him? 2. What if he just sits down and is stubborn and won't move?
The place that I took my dogs to get away from him was the creek next to their house because he wouldn't go in it
Meg lost my old phone that had your number in it and I will be getting him next week so I would LOVE to introduce him to Dulcie if we can make our schedules work. I will PM you my number!
Thank You all I will keep you updated on his progress. Especially when he comes next week. |
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-Jessica-
*Bailey* GSP
*Lily* GSP
* RIP: Maggie Mae* GSP
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 06/26/2009 12:58 AM |
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| For the tire you need a harness. You are right it could hurt his neck with a regular collar. I would start with the harness and the check cord at first with you holding on. Let him pull you some. If that is working add a small tire, and see what happens. You might have to coax him with some play and toys. Get him excited. It might take some sessions, but I bet before long he will pull. I don't know ho big this boy is, but I wouldn't put a regular tire on, just something heavy enough he has to work a bit. Maybe MegC has some ideas on what he could pull, and how to get him started pulling. Ask her when you PM her. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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MegC
Ellensburg, WA
MH
Posts:989
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| 06/26/2009 8:15 AM |
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Oh I've got a whole shed full of various sized harnesses and a tire and a scooter rigged to go. That would be the easy part!  |
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Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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Kerplunk105
Bucks County, PA
MH
Posts:713
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| 06/26/2009 9:23 AM |
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| Meg, how old can a dog be to start tire pulling? Leena is just about 8 months. What should I look for in a harness? |
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Elizabeth
Leena RIP 11/08-9/17/09
Bliss, the Labrador
Tegan, the Weim/Labrador
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MegC
Ellensburg, WA
MH
Posts:989
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| 06/26/2009 10:44 AM |
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Most sled dogs are started at 6-9 months old... I know, I know, heresy in some circles... But dogs used in harness regardless of genetic origin tend to live and move very well for a very long time. My hunch is that it's because they're kept much leaner and fitter on much higher quality food than the average pet.
This is a tough time of year to run dogs though because the temperatures tend to be too high. GSPs, especially those out of hunting lines pushed hard in warm weather, tend to handle heat better than most breeds. But that's sometimes offset by their overwhelming (self destructive in some cases even) enthusiasm for running and pulling in harness. Mine are staying busy trenching for gophers in the back yard right now. |
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Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 06/26/2009 10:54 AM |
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| I would second what Meg is saying with regard to the heat. I live in Texas and it has been hitting 105 in the heat of the day for the last couple of weeks. I keep my dogs lean year round, but it really helps them in the summer. I also keep my gang acclimated. In the summer they go out early in the morning and stay outside usually until about 1PM. They have an air conditioned kennel they can get into as well as a tank with water, but they typically opt to lay out in the grass in the early morning in the sun, then as it heats up they move to the covered patio where I have a ceiling fan. Once in a while they will go into the kennel in the morning, but not usually. If I leave them out after about 1PM they all go get in the kennel in the hottest part of the day. Right now mine are outside chasing squirrels. We don't have gophers, too much limestone rock in the ground. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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MegC
Ellensburg, WA
MH
Posts:989
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| 06/26/2009 11:29 AM |
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Ma nature seems to be menopausal here in central WA.... 90+ degree days the other week turned to 36 degrees the other morning, I kid you not... but most days are getting up into the 70s and 80s. I don't like running dogs over 60 and even then I have to watch the tongues, breathing, and think about water I can get one into if they start cooking. So... we might be able to get Mr Juvenile Delinquent started in harness on a cooler morning or three, but it will be hard to stay consistent until around Labor Day.
I still wouldn't mind checking him out to see how different he is from our crew on the hassle-factor scale though. To be honest, running loose on our unfenced acreage is a rare privilege that often has to be prepped for with some e-collar reminder sessions and then a sharp eye devoted to the hound in question 100% of the time. There's quail, rabbits, deer, and the occasional feral cat out there and into the neighbor's properties to chase. Even Dulcie at 11 years old will sneak out the door and crash into the neighbor's brush after rabbits if she gets a split second opportunity... she is usually sensible about returning when I get out there and yell, but I don't pretend for a minute that she'd even hear me if she was in hot pursuit. Hey, if I'm that old with a shot at that kind of glory, I don't think I'd be coming back until I was done either- LOL!!!
We have a stock tank and they do drive-byes on it pretty regularly when they're all out in the yard. Now that we've got a solid fence up I can leave them out for 30-60 minutes in the morning, more at night, and pretty much all day on the weekends... they seem to keep each other pretty egged on until by Sunday night I notice they're all moving slower and choosing to snooze more, lol. I'm going through a little more food than in summers past when they were in their kennels more, but it's x10 worth it. |
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Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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Central.Wa.GSPs
MH
Posts:314
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| 06/26/2009 12:19 PM |
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| I have no worries about Charlie pulling anything. All the dogs and us people went on a walk while we were there and all he did was PULL on the leash and he is already 45 lbs that he really pulled on his owner. I gave her my two that heeled the whole time and took him and I think I got more of a work out trying to get him to not pull then anyone else. He is a BIG dog already and has a lot of "torque" in him. |
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-Jessica-
*Bailey* GSP
*Lily* GSP
* RIP: Maggie Mae* GSP
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 06/26/2009 1:39 PM |
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| Also, at some point with dogs you have to weigh consequences. Which is better a dog that is trainable or a dog that is out of control? In this case, even though this dog is still young I think getting through to him and making him better behaved is more important than worrying about should he pull a tire or not because he is only 6 months old. If he is anything like my male was at that age, he needs a challenge and the exercise. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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