WildRose
Seymour Texas
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Posts:471
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| 05/13/2009 2:04 PM |
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Posted By Cornbread on 05/13/2009 1:56 PM
Now come on...did you not read my 2nd paragraph?
Thanks again to all and to all a good night!
Personally I'd stick with the scruff of the neck pick up and shake along with a loud NO! Followed up with just holding the dog till it submits.
The stare down may well eventually trigger the exact opposite of what you are hoping for. It IS a direct challenge and often illicits an attack.
Grabbing the tongue and pinching it, along with pinching the lips against the teeth work very well too.
Patience and persistence is the key. |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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pixie bee
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Posts:4448
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| 05/13/2009 2:15 PM |
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cornbread,
I was covering myself.I didn't want it to be taken out of context.
Your attempt at humor was taken exactly the way you intended it.
It was pretty funny,too.
I wrote a somewhat humorous reply but then thought better of it. Don't want to be taken out of context or have exaggerated interpretations.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
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Posts:7834
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| 05/13/2009 2:37 PM |
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| I tend to agree with Wildrose on the staring. As the dog gets older, this is likely to be seen as aggression by the dog and may get the opposite response from what you want. Pick up any book on animal behavior in dogs and they all say staring directly into a dogs eyes is confrontational. Watch dogs together and you will notice they never approach each other face to face. It is always from the side. If you do see dogs approaching face to face, look out as there is apt to be a confrontation of some sort. When I am training my dogs around other dogs, I watch for the eye stare. If I see it setting up, I intervene and break the competition before it gets started. The fastest way to dog agression between dogs is to get into a staring contest. Same thing with humans and dogs. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
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Posts:4448
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| 05/13/2009 2:39 PM |
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'The stare down may well eventually trigger the exact opposite of what you are hoping for. It IS a direct challenge and often illicits an attack.'
I agree. Good information.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Cornbread
SH
Posts:50
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| 05/13/2009 5:56 PM |
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ok. cool will pull that from tool bag and discard. thank you! though I thought someone early said it works...I'm not going to research back.
I did just talk with someone who raises Husky's. said they solve the problem by enduring until the dog is large enough to get its mouth around his fist. then once the dog has his fist in his mouth he uses his other hand to hold it there for 30 with dog whining (to be release) and NEVER has a problem after - mouthing solve.
...thoughts on that, not mentioned previously, technique? |
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TessaGA
Georgia
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Posts:2387
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| 05/13/2009 6:26 PM |
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Oh yeah, I forgot about that one...same with jumping. Hold them there and force them to do whatever you don't want them to do for longer than they want to do it. Supposed to be quite effective.
I agree the stare-down is not a good thing, and the alpha-roll is best left to professionals.
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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DesertRoseKennel
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Posts:1033
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| 05/13/2009 10:37 PM |
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Folks - reality check here. We are talking about a ten week old puppy, not an adult dog with emotional baggage. Are you really thinking staring down a baby at this age will "precipitate an attack"?? That's a little melodramatic. If it actually did, you would have a pup with serious issues and have to move swiftly and extremely firmly to put a stop to that. I still stand by my advice.
Jean |
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"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
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Posts:7834
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| 05/13/2009 10:45 PM |
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| Jean - The OP needs to know about the issues with staring if used when the dog is older. It might be ok on a puppy right now, but not so good to use later. Better they understand now or they might try it when the dog is older for another reason. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
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| 05/13/2009 10:49 PM |
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That's true Bev, if it's an adult dog you didn't raise yourself from a pup. Again, I am speaking from my personal experience - I don't pretend to know everything about all dogs - especially those with aggression issues. However, I have used the stare down with all the pups I've raised. As soon as they avert their eyes, our confrontation is over and forgotten. It works on them for their entire life span. ALL my dogs will always avert their eyes and allow me to be in charge. It has been an extremely useful tool for me.
To each his own, but I will not accept any position other than alpha.
Jean |
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"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
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Posts:471
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| 05/13/2009 11:10 PM |
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| Are you really thinking staring down a baby at this age will "precipitate an attack"?? That's a little melodramatic. Are you really thinking staring down a baby at this age will "precipitate an attack"?? That's a little melodramatic. No puppies do the same thing and thus it's likely to create issues, the same issue she's trying to avoid.
It wont' cause a blood and hair flying attack at this age, but puppies in their rough play most certainly will freeze face to face, locked up on each other staring, and the first one to turn away gets pounced on.
As they get older of course that same stare can precipitate a serious attack.
Even if it's successful the end result is a dog that will go submissive merely at your glance, and duck away lowering it's head. That's not how I want to see my dogs act when I approach them.
Again, I like to keep things simple and not train something in I'll only have to train out later so I recommend the same. |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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pixie bee
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Posts:4448
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| 05/14/2009 5:37 AM |
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All that is posted is opinion.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Cornbread
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| 05/14/2009 6:00 AM |
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OP here again. Because I'm no pro. have had 4 dogs in my LIFE this being the first pup I have been responsible for (not my parents). I'm thinking the smack, the stare down and what I think is the alpha roll (pinning the pup until he's calmed it down) are all OUT (for ME). Better to be safe than sorry.
I will use the verbal "no" followed by praise, bitter apple, pressure on the tongue and lip to teeth techniques, hold him until he stops struggling, putting him to kennel for a time-out (not punishment).
I'm totally committed to my pup, but don't have near the experience that it seem most of you respondants do, thus what appear to be debatable are options I have but will save them for later and only if needed. He's 10.5 now and has a long way to go. I'll be patient. |
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pixie bee
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Posts:4448
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| 05/14/2009 6:39 AM |
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Hey cornbread,
this is for you.
this is advice given by a qualified obedience and gundog trainer. Hope it helps you.
Always have a collar on your pup (have a lead if necessary for control). As soon as teeth hit skin FOR ANY REASON, even if you think it's an "accident", take one hand and control the pup by holding the collar. Take the other hand and fold the upper lip over one of the canines and pinch until the pup gives a little yelp or other response that lets you know it's uncomfortable. AS you are pinching, look directly into pup's eyes and CALMLY, but firmly, give your chosen command (I used settle down). After you get a small reaction to the pinch, STOP PINCHING BUT CONTINUE TO RESTRAIN THE PUP (VERY IMPORTANT -- Do NOT let pup free when you let off the correction). Hold it calmly and repeat the command, then release.
Offer your hand to the pup.
IF pup comes back immediately, correction should be stronger and longer. If pup licks or doesn't bite, praise the puppy.
Do this CONSISTENTLY for a few days and it will all be over. If you find it isn't working, I can almost guarantee you're not doing it consistently, or quickly enough or with an appropriate amount of pressure (it should not initially be very much, but it should escalate with each subsequent bite).
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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everbell
Kanata, ON
MH
Posts:3162
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| 05/14/2009 6:58 AM |
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He's 10.5 now and has a long way to go. I'll be patient.
That's the key -- remember they will out grow it. One day, he'll be 5 times the size he is now, and you'll have forgotten all about his bad behaviour as a baby.... but of course, that will be on the other side of adolescence  |
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Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 05/14/2009 7:22 AM |
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cornbread - I think you are taking the right approach. I would also suggest you read some books on animal behavior as much of what has been posted has been covered in books. A couple of good ones are:
The Dog's Mind: Understanding Your Dog's Behavior by Bruce Fogle
The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell
The Art of Raising a Puppy by the Monks of New Skete
And one I am reading now (I can't say it is good or bad yet as I haven't finished it):
The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
I read all kinds of animal behavior, obedience, and training books and pick and choose to put together a training program for each of my dogs. Each dog is different and sometimes one thing will work better than another. So, as I said at the beginning of this post, I think you are on the right track. I have also found, that unless you have a hard headed puppy, those methods you mentioned you want to use initially will work. Good luck and let us know if you have more questions.
The key is patience and consistency. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 05/14/2009 7:43 AM |
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Good book suggestions from Bev, especially the first twoo, these books are great food for thought, don't expect them to be a "how-to" but rather as a way to better understand your dog.
I'd like to add two gun dog specific books:
"How to help gun dogs train themselves" [Joan Bailey]
"Best way to train your gun dog: Delmar Smith Method" [Bill Tarrant]
Neither one is the ultimate guide but both are good reads, Delmar Smith is a riot, old school, I enjoyed it. You don't have to agree with all that's in a book, just use your best judgment and go with your gut feeling.
I'm totally committed to my pup, but don't have near the experience that it seem most of you respondants do
You'll do just fine. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 05/15/2009 1:43 AM |
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"How to help gun dogs train themselves" [Joan Bailey]
"Best way to train your gun dog: Delmar Smith Method" [Bill Tarrant] Good suggestions. I recommend them to ANY first time pointing dog owner.
Also if/when you can find it on Amazon or other used book sources is "Mastering the German Shorthair" by Mark Fischer.
It's been out of print for 20 years or so but there's some good information in it. If you actually read all three (not just search for specific answers here and there) you can gain a great deal of understanding as to dog behavior and human/canine communication. |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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everbell
Kanata, ON
MH
Posts:3162
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| 05/15/2009 4:40 AM |
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I'm totally committed to my pup, but don't have near the experience that it seem most of you respondants do...
Hey, there's a lot of us first-timers to the breed on here as well, so there is a wide range of experience to glean from. (FYI -- Bo was my first dog, ever. I enjoyed having him so much we added number 2 in April  ) |
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Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 05/15/2009 7:07 AM |
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Also if/when you can find it on Amazon or other used book sources is "Mastering the German Shorthair" by Mark Fischer.
Thanks for the suggestion. I was not yet aware of the book.
I forgot to mention Larry Mueller's "speed train your own gun dog". I think they all overlap one way or another. The Mueller and Bailey books deal with the dog's first year and how to condition the pup for the serious field work that will follow. These books really opened my eyes to the world that my bird dog sees, enabling me to better tune in with my dog, and the both of us having a lot of fun in the process. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Pointer Fan
Westminster, Colorado
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Posts:954
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| 05/15/2009 8:33 AM |
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| I second Everbell on the first-timers. Everyone on here was a first timer at one time or another. Our first pointer came into a home that was totally ignorant about GSPs. We had a 3 year old and a baby. Wonderful dog. We learned---she learned. GSPs are really very adaptive dogs. Funny thing is I don't remember any of my three dogs mouthing us with their vampire fangs----could be selective memory. |
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