05/07/2009 7:49 AM

Quote Reply Alert

"Your posts: In post #4 ,so, you figured this out at what-----8 years old????" Yes, mostly because when it came to the social graces such as temperament and personality, and desire to fight Our first GSP and most of the others I saw in the field in the sixties and seventies were severely LACKING! The only thing that made them tolerable was they produced more game for the gun than anything else in the field. "In post #6,not sure what facts you are referring to, except maybe the fact that you believe you are always correct"  Well if I didn't think I had the experience with the breed to comment accurately I wouldn't bother to comment at all.  Remember, "The value of an opinion is equal to the education and experience from which it was formed." Obviously I have the education and experience to form a credible opinon.  'In post #7, you are backtalking. 1st, to much pointing does hurt a dog' performance then it doesn't. Well, which is it? Then you go on to say what i said but in your own words." No I simply demonstrate here that I have enough experience with AKC trials and hunt tests to no that "style" is only one aspect of a dogs performance and "too many finds" does not harm that aspect of judgment.  Your original statement was that too many finds hurts a dogs style, not his chances of doing well overall.  Again you are being dishonest in misrepresenting this yet again since it was clearly explained to you by myself and others in detail. "In post #8, goes on to assume i was talking about you and to you." No I assumed you were talking to and about "field trial enthusiasts" since you specified them/us and I am "one of those people"    "In post #9, this post goes on to substantiate what i already said, again, in your own words." Wrong yet again.  You have yet and never will find any where that I have displayed "hatred" for versatile dogs, their owners, nor versatile venues. "I hope you can see how petty this is. I can go on if you like. I will even compare what you said in this thread to what you stated in the 'Performance Events' thread." Yes I see exactly how childish and petty you are being.  You can search till your eyes fall out and fingers freeze up and you will never be able to demonstrate my "hatred" for versatile dogs or versatile venues because it doesn't exist.  What you will continue to display is your lack of respect for anything not part of the German or DK systems or that doesn't inclued YOUR definition of versatile or what the breed "should be".

"Drive is the manifestation of desire, which is measured in style. "

I would not agree with that statement.

Style is defines as how the dog looks and acts on point.  There are two aspects to this; the dog's intensity on point and his physical build/conformation (and to a certain degree his genetic disposition).  Dogs that point with a high tail set have a different physical build than ones that don't.  Keep in mind "tail set" is different than "tail attitude".  You can have a low tail set and point with a high tail.

Intensity is most important, even in FTs.  Point with a 9:00 or 10:00 tail with intensity throughout the entire body and you're going to beat the pants off the dogs that point with a 12:00 tail but flag and look around.  Intensity is a physical manifestation of the pointing instinct and in some ways the dog's trainability. Dogs that require a tremendous amount of pressure will often show it in their style on point; both in the angle of the tail and the intensity of the dog.  

As we all know, dogs that are scared or uncertain or timid will drop their tails below 9:00.  As a result, if a judge sees a dog on point with an 8:00 tail, what's he supposed to think?  Smart birddog folks realize that pointing dogs show uncertainty either with a low tail, a loose tail or both.

Once again, style is talked about FAR MORE than it really matters in GSP trials, including championships.  If the dog points with intensity and a tail attitude that's within the norm (10:00 or better) is going to be competitive, and having a 12:00 tail isn't going to win you trials simply because of it.  Ride enough trials and you see that the dog with the best style, or the biggest range, or the fastest ground speed virtually NEVER wins.  You don't win based on one trait, because we don't judge for one trait.  You win because of the dog's total performance.

JMO,
Dave

The breed prior to the eighties had a well earned reputation for fighters and biters.  Today however it is very rare to see a GSP at a trial, test, or dog show, that doesn't want to lick your face rather than bite you as you walk by.

I can't tell you  how many hunts I saw ruined as a kid and young man because one or more of the GSP's involved just HAD to start the day off with a fight.

I've judged no stakes yet where the difference in winning and losing came down to a 12 o'clock tail vs one at 10:30-11:00. Even in the stakes where we had two or more dogs with flawless performances it always came down to bird work, quality finds, (one quality find vs three quality finds and a point or two on the horse path), intensity on point, and/or course and handling.

Style always matters but I have yet to judge a stake or participate in one where style trumped the overall performance.

Quote from Francine:

Dave,
in FTs style is judged by point only.

This is a wholly inaccurate statement. EVERYTHING the dog does has a style and intensity element and is judged accordingly.

Again if you had any experience with AKC hunt tests and trials you would be able to converse in the appropriate vernacular. In any context when we are talking about style it is about eye appeal, whether we are talking style on point, running style or the overall style of a class birddog.

If you aren't speaking the same language as the rest of us how is it we're supposed to have an intelligent, informed discussion?
 

Just like words such as "duck search" have a specific meaning in your venues, style has a particular meaning in our's, but again to understand what it means you would have to have some experience and a willingness to learn.

There are currently fifty two GSP's at my kennel belonging to 9 different people. None of them are fighters, none of them are biters because we have greatly improved that aspect of the breed over the last forty years.

You are now derailing yet another thread.

Hey guys, Dave Quint said:

The problem is "style" is defined as how the dog looks ON POINT. In order to judge style, the dog needs to find and point birds. "Class" is defined as how the dog looks while moving.'

and this:

'Style is defines as how the dog looks and acts on point'

You all agreed and now I'm wrong?

Apparently, I'm speaking the same language as DRK,because she said what I said.Style is in everything a dog does,point,search,retrieve,ect.

I own 2 DKs and have been around about 50 others ,I would trust each one of them with my 6 year old daughter. I am familiar with many more DKs thru speaking with owners here and in europe. My husband grew up with 4 DKs and knew many others and all of them were friendly and loving pets and hunters.
Before my husband was born my father-in-law owned 3 DKs and all were wonderful and hunted boar exclusivly.

Why am I derailing into another thread? Pass the buck to someone else,not me.It was you and others who are harping on the biting issue. I merely mentioned a quote of yours.

 

Again, and I'll type slowly.... . The number of times a dog points, the number of times a dog has finds, is not at all reflected in the judgement of the "style" of the dog unless the dog has poor style when pointing.  Again, you make the same failed point.

As to fighting and biting, you pulled a quote from a totally unrelated thread to make your failed point that I "hate versatile dogs".  Your point is still failed because nothing you can find anywhere supports your contention.  I do not now, nor have I ever hated versatile dogs or versatile venues, have never stated such any where, at any time.

Congratulations.  Your lifetime experience in number of GSP's you have been around actually is greater than the total number I have here at the moment.  It also equals at least 1/10th the number of "versatile dogs" I have spent time with over the last five years.

However I must point out, that I have trained more GSPs than that this year alone, have been braced with more GSP's than that since January, and have judged more GSP's than that in the last three or four trials I have judged.

Feel free to continue to derail. 

 

Jean, here's how I see it. The total package of a dog I enjoy is a "class dog".  Class is a combination of multiple factors including style, intensity, gait, manner of going. 

Dave I think is relying on the Amesian definition which is fine, it just doesn't actually reflect how AKC defines "style" in regaurds to pointing breed field trials.  However it's not worth quibbling over because all three of us seeing the same great dog would say the same thing, "That was a class dog", "That dog had great style and intensity on point", and so on.

Read slowly...
 

Your first post on Page two which began this whole inane thing.

Umm, NOPE!

To add a little clarity to this.  From the AKC "Red Book" on field trial rules and procedures.

STANDARD PROCEDURE FOR

 Glossary of Terms:

Instead of continuing the personal rant can you please simply tell me exactly what part of the above post you quoted has you so confused?