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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 04/18/2009 10:27 PM |
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Ok no one start arguing here ..... I just can't remember when it is that we find out if the GSP standard is going to be changed to allow black? Anyone know....?
I am not holding my breath for it to happen but just couldn't remember. Please please no turning this into a "yes it should" or "no it shouldn't thread...."  |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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lauralee
Plainfield, CT.
MH
Posts:449
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| 04/19/2009 5:58 AM |
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| They will count the ballots at the Nationals in May,, by the way, if you belong to the GSPCA, you should have received a ballot.. |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 04/19/2009 11:53 AM |
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Thanks for letting me know. I did get my ballot but I voted and sent it right back in the same day. So I didn't notice when they count them.
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7853
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 05/10/2009 3:03 AM |
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Unfortunately it will probably be about five minutes after hell freezes over. There's simply too much power in the bench crowd that is afraid of competing against them in the ring. They will remain step children of the breed for at least one more year.
More field/performance focused people need to join the GSPCA and vote function over form, or it's never going to change. |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/10/2009 8:46 AM |
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It did not pass. I'm still waiting to hear the official numbers on the votes For/Against.
It's funny really, while there are some Performance folks against it, a surprisingly large percentage are in favor of it.
My opinion and mind you it is just that, opinion; is that the powerhouse Show Breeders that are against it have enough followers/puppy owners willing to vote as they are told too without doing the research to understand what it is they are voting on and the "facts" they are fed for why it shouldn't be allowed.....kind of like politics on the National level in this Country. The powerhouse Show Breeders push, contractually sometimes; that their quality pups be shown, that the owners become GSPCA Members(often for the purposes of the Futurity Class'), etc... and put all sorts of stipulations on owning one of their pups. The Field/Performance people do not generally do such contracts/requirements and only push for good quality homes that will hunt the heck out of them and make them a part of the family, possibly only requesting their owners become GSPCA Members. It becomes readily apparent where political power can come from, regardless of whether those agendas are good for the Breed or not.
The arguments against allowing Black range from the mundane, to the absolutely ridiculous and are quite often clouded by personal opinion, misconception and lack of honest facts. There seems to be quite a bit of a lack of intellectual integrity within many of those arguments, again, my opinion.
Funnier yet, this Spring I have had more request(40-50 perhaps) for Black/Black & White pups than in all years combined previously. My Breeding Program at this point in it's development has me working with Liver & White dogs with no immediate(next year, year and a half) future plans to bring a Black Breeding back into the line. I have been left referring these folks seeking the Black to the very few other Breeders I am willing to recommend. They too seem to be at a point in their Programs where there are not as many Blacks available, thus this DQ on Blacks seems to be having the impact of actually making them "rarer' to find from a QUALITY Breeder and is likely to have the impact of allowing those with no real care or honest interest in improving the Breed; to capitalize and command premium's on the color; to push those with Blacks AWAY from AKC Conformation Events and into the UKC Show Ring and will also likely have the impact of pushing more of the Black Owners AWAY from the GSPCA and eliminating possible Members that would support the Club.
Myself? I will remain a Member of the GSPCA and continue to Breed the best dogs I can with little regard to whether they are Black or Liver and with all of my focus on their abilities and structural Conformation, not color. After all, color is just a paint job covering what is under the hood. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/10/2009 8:54 AM |
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Something I should clarify also:
I DO NOT believe the majority of the Conformation folks are against allowing it, however it is some of those that are, that having an extremely large Political pull within the Club to sway the owners of their pups that are Members. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7853
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| 05/10/2009 12:39 PM |
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Bruce - Very well said.
I have for the 6 years I have owned shorthairs and been a member of the GSPCA tried to answer the question, Why not black or black/white? To date, I have heard all kinds of answers, but never with substance that would warrant a no vote on allowing the color into the standard. So, I will continue to vote for adding the black color and will continue to ask Why not? Just as humans have done with the human race, they do with dogs. There will always be people with prejudices who believe very strongly in their positions. I would, however, encourage the open minded folks not to give up and continue to push the issue. It is a real shame as there are some gorgeous black and black/white shorthairs out their.
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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DeeDee_TX
Houston, TX
JH
Posts:37
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| 05/10/2009 1:18 PM |
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Being new to GSPs I find the whole black&white debate fascinating. If it is just one's preference in the color of dog he would like to own personally you'd think ihis dilemma could be solved on the individual level, not the breed level.
For what it is worth, I just noticed our breeder's next litter out of Sophie's dam will be with a black/white stud. Anyone is welcome to PM me if you are interested (I don't know the etiquette of posting litter information).
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Dee Dee |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7853
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| 05/10/2009 1:58 PM |
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So here is how the vote went in percentages:
60% voted for the color change, but 66.6% was needed for the change to pass.
A simple majority does not get the change passed. I believe it is a 2/3s majority needed. However, we increased the vote from 57% to 60% from last year. Hopefully, this will come up again next year. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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caroline_mae
Clemson, SC
MH
Posts:102
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| 05/10/2009 5:12 PM |
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| So I realize I'm new to this and all. But I'd like to know the black and white advocate's side but I do know that liver is recessive to black. GSP's were bred to be liver and white and two livers will never produce a black puppy. Therefore it makes sense that blacks are excluded. In conformation at least which is judgment on how close the dog is to the breed standard. However I don't know the black and white side and I'm open to hearing it. So if someone would share I'd appreciate it. |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 05/10/2009 5:56 PM |
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Bruce will have to give you the link to his site, where he has posted a good article on the history of the black coat color. I have been in this "fight" longer than many, since 1996. My now almost 13-year old black and white was bred by Maria Bein, who organized the first petition drive to put the coat color issue on the ballot.
GSPs are not all "bred to be liver and white." In summary, the black color came by way of a deliberate cross to the Arkwright Pointer, a black Pointer. Those offspring were first registered in a seperate book, then eventually, in the 1930's, I think, they were all put in the same book. The irony of all this fuss with color, is that there are livers who go back to that Arkwright Pointer cross, too. But only the blacks are excluded from the show ring.
The reasons for opposing the inclusion of black pigmented have changed some over the years. At first, pre-DNA, was the concern that allowing this color would mean people would cross to Pointers. Of course, Pointers come in liver and white, too, but many people worried about this. Now, there is DNA parentage testing and DNA is even required for the NSS, so that worry should have been laid to rest. But I have still heard that fear expressed. Other reasons include the color not being part of the breed tradition. My favorite, is that the AKC standard was wriiten the way it was for a reason and we should not change it. I have had people say that black GSPs may carry some health probloems, although which has not been specified. The list goes on....and on. And most shows very little understanding of breed history. If breed history is understood, then it is often just personal preference.
Like Bruce, I will continue to be a member of the GSPCA. And I will show in breed in UKC. I have owned two black and whites, as well as four liver and whites. I love GSPs. Period. But I do love the black coat color, just as some love solid livers.
66.7% is a super majority and hard to achieve. Me, I am primaril;y a performance person, so black coat color does not keep me form my goals for my dogs.
Eleanor in NJ
P.S: Including the black coat color would not open the door to allow lemon or orange GSPs in the breed ring. Those are not correct GSP colors.
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/10/2009 7:04 PM |
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Posted By caroline_mae on 05/10/2009 5:12 PM
So I realize I'm new to this and all. But I'd like to know the black and white advocate's side but I do know that liver is recessive to black. GSP's were bred to be liver and white and two livers will never produce a black puppy. Therefore it makes sense that blacks are excluded. In conformation at least which is judgment on how close the dog is to the breed standard. However I don't know the black and white side and I'm open to hearing it. So if someone would share I'd appreciate it.
I'm confused by your reply.
No, GSP's are not bred to be Liver and White. Historically, GSP's are Liver, or Liver and White in any number of combinations; AS WELL AS, Black, or Black and White in any number of combinations.
Yes, Liver is recessive to Black and Yes, 2 Livers CAN NOT produce a Black pup. This is EXACTLY why it DOESN'T make sense to exclude Black. You can't get Black unless you breed to Black.
A person doesn't want Black in their lines; which is laughable when one does enough Pedigree research to know just how many popular Liver dogs of today have Black behind them; they simply DO NOT Breed a Black dog or bitch.
The Vote of which we're talking, was to change the Standard as it should be, to recognize the Black color that is historically a part of the GSP Breed. In doing so, Black/Black & White dogs would be in the Standard and thus eligble to be shown in Conformation against it's Liver/Liver and White peers. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7853
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dnauer
Colorado Springs, CO
MH
Posts:175
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| 05/11/2009 12:20 PM |
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Not to create a discussion here (since the unpleasant discussions seem to be occurring, as they always do, on GSP-L) -- but for those characterizing this as strictly an opinion in the "show" community (e.g. why not to vote for black) you'll find some significant folks on the "field side" (I hate splitting the folks here) that are strongly against allowing Black in the breed for a wide variety of reasons. Just go into the GSP-L archives available on this list going back for years of posts on this -- you'll see many names that are definitely Field enthusiasts that are against black --
I'm personally very much in favor of passing black, but those that oppose it oppose it for many reasons -- you'd need to talk to each individual -- and remember -- respect their opinion -- they are taking their positions with the same concerns those in favor do -- we all want what is best for the breed -- we just disagree on whether this is good or bad for the breed.
Put put simply it isn't just conformation / show people that oppose black coming in. In fact, I'm guessing a significant enough number of field enthusiasts are against this change, certainly enough to minimally account for that "missing" 6 2/3% -- just an observation regardless of which side of the fence you favor on this subject.
Dave |
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Dave in Colorado
Voyager GSPs
"If there are no dogs in heaven, when I die, I want to go where they went" -- Will Rogers |
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