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lauralee Plainfield, CT.
 MH Posts:449

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| 02/26/2009 10:58 AM |
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I just wanted to bring this subject to light, because I don't know if everyone pays attention to the other Forum topics !!! I am having trouble excepting that someone might want to encourage this !!! |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7839


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| 02/26/2009 11:51 AM |
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I have been following that discussion with interest, so I went back and did a little research. Apparently there is a recessive gene allele that goes back to shorthairs in Germany and Denmark that could still be present in some of today's GSPs. Here is an excerpt from Georgina Byrne's book about Tri-colored GSPs.
"Tricoloured dogs have certainly appeared in GSP litters. Two very famous and important sires, Artus Sand (Germany) and Bob Koge (Denmark) had close relatives described as "tricoloured" (Maxwell, 1965 and Burns, 1952). In Artus' case, it was his sister, Atta Sand, and in the case of Bob, both his sire, Hestehaven's Rap and an unnamed uncle were so coloured. Presumably, since the pattern is governed by a recessive gene allele there may still be GSPs carrying the gene. If two such animals chanced to mate, then perfectly legitimate tricoloured pups could appear. No doubt such pups would cause great consternation for their breeder, however."
The section of the book is very extensive and if you are interested in coat color I would highly recommend it. There are a couple of other books I have not checked out yet, but also have sections on coat color as well. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Bxr-Linda Oregon
 MH Posts:171


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| 02/26/2009 12:11 PM |
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Anyone have a picture of this color? I'm curious.
I don't know enough about the GSP breed to comment intelligently, but...
Genetically speaking, I would think if this is created by recessive genes, then a dog of this color might be likely to have other 'defects' linked to the recessive gene.
(Like in many breeds where white dogs are more likely to be deaf?)
Sadly, people with encourage anything they believe will make them money! And there are people out there who will fall for it!!
A friend of ours has a cat his daughter bought for him. It's a Polydactyl (all 4 paws) with a bob tail. She claims it's a rare breed! I told them it means the parents were too closely related!!! |
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lauralee Plainfield, CT.
 MH Posts:449

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| 02/26/2009 12:35 PM |
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In genetics this colored gene has been through so many generations, that the likelyhood even if both parents are carriers of this recessive gene of a puppy being produced is highly unlikely, and should be deemed questionable. I don't disagree that there are previously bred other colors than, liver & black., as there are also other breeds that have gone into the developement of GSP's, so in the beginning of developement, I'm sure there were alot of color variations. The problem I'm having is the possible intention of someone encouraging these recessive colors. If back yard breeders get a whiff of this desire, it will only be another way they see to make money !!!! I don't think I 'm being pranoid in foreseeing this possibility, as it has happened to other breeds. Simply said ,,, I don't want people messin with an already GOOD thing |
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TessaGA Georgia
 MH Posts:2387


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| 02/26/2009 12:54 PM |
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Recognizing black ones in the U.S./AKC would be nice, other than that I'd leave things as they are. I don't know enough about genetics to add much but this is kinda...cute in scientific way...I like 'em all liver black or ticked 


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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7839


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| 02/26/2009 1:12 PM |
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The question though was is it possible, and the answer is yes. Is it likely, based on the rest of the Coat and Colour section in Ms. Byrne's book, I would say no. The further out we get from the original occurrence the less likely we are to see it show up.
I agree with you lauralee on the backyard breeder concern, but really do you think there are any backyard breeders out there smart enough to pay attention to a recessive gene? Right now they are doing the obvious like the Labradoodle, Goldendoodle. etc. They don't have to understand genetics to come up with these combos. I would think it more likely that they would cross another breed with the Shorthair to come up with some other"designer breed."
All that said we also have to be careful about labeling folks that do cross breeding because after all our GSPs came from many such crossbreedings. There may be instances where it is done with thought and for a good reason. The Shorthairs being crossed with Alaskan Huskies in the Scandanavian countries to create what is now known as the Eurohound is a good example. I am sure MegC can talk to this one more extensively. Here is an excerpt on the Eurohound breeding:
"The new Eurohound is a choice for many sprint mushers. A Eurohound is a cross between an Alaskan Husky and German Short haired Pointer. This cross first successfully entered the competitive sled dog racing world in Scandinavia. It is one of the most formidable racing dogs in the world, combining the husky's centuries-honed sledding ability and a pointer's enthusiasm and athleticism." |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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lauralee Plainfield, CT.
 MH Posts:449

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| 02/26/2009 1:40 PM |
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| Understandably, the Eurohound was developed to start a new breed. I have nothing against the carefull breeding to develope new breeds to serve a purpose. My concern is the breeding by unknowledgable people to take a breed such as the GSP, and introduce unexceptable color variations to make a profit. |
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caroline_mae Clemson, SC
 MH Posts:102


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| 02/26/2009 1:54 PM |
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I actually did extensive research on this topic for a paper in my Genetics class. I honestly found little evidence to suggest that white coat coloring is possible in todays GSPs. However there are instances where mutations occur in genes while this may be possible there should be no reason to breed this dog. The reason liver and black were chosen for GSP's is because of the field work they do a white GSP would have never been selected for by early breeders. That is why finding two dogs that carry that allele is so rare that it is almost impossible. I personally look at the dog and see lab but thats me. Aside from coat color even if it was liver or black I would look at it and see lab it has a labby build and a labby head. I don't know if I would go as far as to say that these people have intentions of breeding. I'm comfortable with the dog being out there and having them have it labeled as a GSP as long as a trend of buyers wanting "white" GSPs never occurs or if they choose to breed this dog. The right information should be provided in regards to this dog when questioned about the dog. |
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MegC Ellensburg, WA
 MH Posts:989


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| 02/26/2009 2:09 PM |
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Most of the european 'eurohounds' (also called something like vohrster or greyster) are predominantly GSP with just a little 'english' pointer, greyhound, and maybe alaskan husky sprinkled in. The north american 'eurohounds' are more 'alaskan with GSP et al sprinkled in'.
Actually there was a very good thread on SDC just recently that talked in more detail about eurohound breeding, and one of the more interesting tidbits is that it looks like the europeans keep dipping back into solid-hunting GSPs every few generations. This is somewhat opposite of what's happening now in north America, where many prefer to water down the 'hound' influence to 1/4 or 1/8. My guess is that this is because of the greater emphasis on 6 dog+ mid-distance racing in the US & Canada, whereas the Europeans specialize in more smaller team/smaller kennel sprint & skijoring (aka 'micro mushing').... the latter ends up favoring a physically bigger, mentally harder-driving dog without the need for heavy coat. It takes a VERY tough headed and athletic dog to run single dog skijoring/scootering at competative levels. The mental aspect of the GSP is I think going to be the most important contribution the breed has made/is being made/will continue to make to the sled dog world.
If I had an outstanding purebred GSP and a responsible breeder who wanted to cross an outstanding alaskan or eurohound to it, as long as there were lfolks lined up for all the pups I'd definately consider it. But this is orders of magnitude removed from backyard breeding!!!! |
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Megan + Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar) Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7839


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MegC Ellensburg, WA
 MH Posts:989


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| 02/26/2009 2:42 PM |
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| BTW, 99.99% of mushers have zero desire to create a 'new breed' in the way the word 'breed' is understood in AKC circles. Sled dog breeding is all about getting the very best dog for task X in terms of pure performance- which boils down to some conformation, a lot physically under the hood that can't be observed without actually running the dog in competition, and a lot between the ears. Nobody really cares about ear set or color or has coat considerations beyond what's best for their climate and style of running. |
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Megan + Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar) Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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