pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 02/12/2009 3:22 PM |
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| What separates the DK most for me is the perfromance based breeding, the fact that breeders will require you test thru solms and some breeders will only sell to hunters. There is a new club that says the breeds are separate. So much goes back to how the GSP in America has been bred and changed. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 02/12/2009 7:06 PM |
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The very first sentence in the DKV's history refers to the dog as a Vorstehhund (pointer). They are still called Vorstehhunde although since as of the late 1800s they were transformed from a pure pointer to a versatile hunting dog (Vollgebrauchshund).
But yes, Francine, the emphasis in the German DK is clearly on the performance and although I have known DKs as family pets, most are in the hands of the Jaeger who are in charge of regulating the wildlife in their jurisdiction, or private hunters which are not as common as they are here in the U.S. as hunting is very regulated and requires passing a pretty comprehensive test. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Rugergundog
Saginaw Michigan USA
MH
Posts:395
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| 02/12/2009 7:20 PM |
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| I agree with what pixie just posted above. I don't have enough experience to say a DK is "better" than a GSP but maybe more historically pure to what the Germans wanted in an unaltered form. More "versatile". |
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Saginaw Michigan
Brittany- Ruger
GSP- Kilian |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 02/12/2009 8:05 PM |
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I believe that the pure pointer deutsch kurzhaar never existed. The deutsch kurzhaar was created by using pure pointing breeds as well as other breeds. The DK breed did not exist until the late 1800s. The DK was never just a pointing breed, it was created to be an all arounder.
I have spoken to many German breeders and US breeders and no one has called them vorstehhund,ever.
Maybe the word was dropped at some point and they remained with DK. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2721
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| 02/12/2009 11:42 PM |
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| I don't know what DD is but I do know DK= Deutscher kurzaariger Vorstehhund which is other name for the German Short-haired Pointer In 1891 the klub Kurahaar was founded for the purpose of maintaining the standards and guidelines of the breed. German shorthairs entered the United States with German Immigrants pior to 1925. Dr. Thorton is given credit to being Father of the Breed in the United States. In 1930 the AKC recognized the breed of the GSP.( German translation(Deutscher Kurzaariger) |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2721
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| 02/13/2009 9:00 AM |
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Reference for above info comes from. German Shorthaired Pointers- author Pinney, pg 10. Also
Encyclopedia of Dog Breeds- author Juliette Cunliffe pg191. |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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ChipFTAC01
Houston, TX
SH
Posts:58
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| 02/13/2009 9:03 AM |
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Sorry,
DD= Deutsch Drahthaar which translate to German Wirehaired |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 02/13/2009 9:28 AM |
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While another name may be Deutsch Kurzhaaringer Vorsthehhund the question remains, is this the name used by the Deutsch Kurzhaar Verband. I do not have an indication that it is.
It is not in the club name, it is not on any papers I have from them and I have not heard the names used.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2721
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| 02/13/2009 9:56 AM |
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| Wonder what Vorstehhund means in english. It is used in the German Wirehaired Pointer as Deutscher Drahthaariger Vorstehhund and German Shorthaired Pointer as Deutscher Kurzhaar Vorstehhund. Does it mean pointer?( All in my Dog Encylcopedia reference book.) Is the DK and the GSP the same dog or is it just from specific German boodlines that make a dog a DK vs a GSP?? I looked on the DK web site once and saw Rocky's twin. |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 02/13/2009 10:08 AM |
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Marie, it's been mentioned a few times above (more clearly on page 2): Vorstehhund is indeed German for pointer.
I think they are still referred to as Vorstehhunde/Pointers because pointing is one of several tricks they have, and per standard must have, in their bag. They are a versatile breed now, so the Vorstehhund/Pointer is often dropped in favor of "Vollgebrauchshund" (translates into "full use dog" = all around = versatile), but since they DO point, as opposed to spaniels and retrievers *, they still fall into the pointer group. Whether rightfully so or not is often debated.
* There are some pointing retrievers, and kennels that breed for pointing retrievers, but as far as I know, it's not their standard and is controversial. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2721
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 02/13/2009 10:40 AM |
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Marie,
The GSP breed originated from the DK. Are they the same breed? Some say when you change the purpose of the breed you change the breed. GSPs have been bred to different standards. Being use strictly as an upland hunter the GSP has not been bred for versatility. The traits may still be in there but not purposly bred for. The dog was bred strong by the Germans. it is difficult to breed out what was so bred in.
Like a poster mentioned earlier, when you breed the 2, you get a pure bred, but to some, it is on paper only.
There are groups that believe the 2 are separate. The reason for this is like I stated above -
the performance based breeding which ensures the DKs verstaility and blood.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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evanston
Evanston, IL
MH
Posts:165
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| 02/13/2009 11:34 AM |
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OT alert! Marie, I also took Latin in high school instead of Spanish (the only two languages offered in my small rural Ohio school). Now I live in Chicago where it would be very helpful to know Spanish given the large Hispanic population, but I don't regret having taken Latin as it has served me well I think in both reading and writing. I also took German and French in college, and while I've forgotten almost all the German I learned for some reason the French has somewhat stuck with me. I always wanted to take some time and live in France for a while to become fluent, but at age 57 I don't think that's going to happen now.  One of the things I love about Chicago is walking around the city and hearing all sorts of different languages - German, French, Polish, Russian, Asian and African languages, etc. One day I heard a couple of young people speaking a completely different sounding language. I asked them what it was - it was Finnish! Of course, some of you in northen WI and MN probably know people who speak Finnish.  |
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Life is not complete without a dog! |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 02/13/2009 11:35 AM |
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Marie here ya go:
Deutsch Kurzhaar: doitsh koortz-harr
Deutscher Kurzhaariger Vorstehhund: doi-tsher koortz-harr-eager For-shtay-hoond
Emphasis on the syllables in italics. This looks insanely silly to me but should work  |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2721
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| 02/13/2009 12:27 PM |
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Thank you TessaGA- will write the way to prononce it on an index card too for work today
This helps!! I absolutely love to learn new words in different languages , especally greetings Yes we do have Wisconsin Cheeseheads who can speak Finnish, Evanston. My Father was Croation from Pittsburgh. So I know some greetings in Croation.Dobar dan= Good Day in Croatian Really OT big time
Also forgot to mention. I absolutely love the pic of Fred's Chessy. She is a real beauty My Snicker girl was a Chese/Lab who took alot after her purebred Chese Father. So I know greatly about the 1or 2 big hair sheds a year. I could have made yarn and knitted a sweater from the fur Snickers shed. Snickers was the calmest dog I have ever owned. Must have got her calm personality from her father's side. Would love to see more pics of your Chese girls
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2721
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| 02/13/2009 11:38 PM |
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| Found One Resident who could speak German on my floor that could pronounce Deutsch Kurzhaar. He couldnot help me with Vorstehhund with his dementia. None of the employees I worked with spoke any German. Had lots of fun practicing speaking German Shortahaired Pointer in German to make alot of my Residents smile!! |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 02/14/2009 5:27 AM |
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Pixie said "Some say when you change the purpose of the breed you change the breed. GSPs have been bred to different standards. Being use strictly as an upland hunter the GSP has not been bred for versatility. The traits may still be in there but not purposly bred for. The dog was bred strong by the Germans. it is difficult to breed out what was so bred in. "
This is not true, for at least the last forty years many, many breeders have bred for and tested for and used their gs's for versatility, and probably many before that, but 40 years is all I can prove records for.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 02/14/2009 8:20 AM |
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You talking about NAVHDA.
NAVHDA recently began it's registry, a registry like AKC, the only requirement,then and now, to breed is that 2 dogs be registered as the same breed.Breeding requirements of each pair are still up to the individual owner and the owner can breed how they choose. It can not be proven that the members have bred soley for versatility. NAVHDA is geared for the NA hunter. There is no fur,no bloodtracking, more emphasis is placed on before the shot rather then after and a conformation rating and bite are not a focus. While NAVHDA is versatile,it is limited versatility,IMO.NAVHDA is not a breed club, it was not created to assist owners in breeding better dogs, it was set up as a test organiization so owners can guage the quality of hunting dog they have.
I like NAVHDA and will continue to test in the system.
I would say many more GSPs have not been used and bred this way then have.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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singltrak
Las Cruces, NM
MH
Posts:1149
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| 02/14/2009 4:37 PM |
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Deutsch Kurzhaar/ DK and Deutsch Drahthaar )DD
basically equivalent to German Shorthair and German Wirehair
(tho the DK and DD people will totally disagree).
Phyllis |
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Look to the Past, Breed for the Future |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 02/14/2009 4:49 PM |
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What is there to disagree with?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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