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TreyUser is Offline
SW Iowa
MH
MH
Posts:516


03/10/2009 6:29 AM  
I was just going to say what Eleanor did. You have ended up with a very alpha pup, now becoming a dog.
He should never be loose while small children are running and playing, and the reverse is true, the kids need to learn how to act around dogs. No child should ever approach any dog while it is sleeping or eating. I fully trust my dogs in the situations, but your children will be at houses of others whos' dogs may not be as trusting (or in this instance your own dog who is having issues), easier to train kids then pups (or at least it should be).
I don't think your dog is a horrible animal that should be returned or pts, I think it is a dominate pups that should not have been sold to someone in your situation (small kids, daycare, no expeirence), he would probably be a fabulous dog in the right hands.
First, no couch, no bed, no chairs, this dogs place is on the floor at all times.
Never let him pass through a doorway before you, your wife or the kids. Make him wait, if you want to know how to do this pm me. Also never let him go down or up stairs while you or the kids are on them.
At feeding time make him wait and make him work (at four months he should know some basic command, and if he doesn't know 'down' he needs to learn it today, with a dog like this you have to teach it early and make them do it often). There are no 'free meals' for him until he starts to tow the line.
Walk him on a leash in the yard, don't just turn him loose to do what he wants.
You have to convince this pup that you are his 'God", you control what he does, when and where and how he eats, where he can take a crap.
Honestly at four months a good hard scruffing should still get his attention, and you need to let him know you can get all four of his feet off the ground.
The dogs problem is he thinks he is equal to you, and higher up then the kids, which at this point in time, he is correct. If the kids are running and playing in the yard, he should not be there, he is just playing with them as he would any other equal, or lesser dog on the totem pole.
As a last resort, contact your breeder and ask if you can trade him on for a more laid back pup, or ideally a dog that is a year or two old. Any responsible breeder will gladly help you.
I hate the way early nueters look, and testosterone isn't his problem, but if you don't get a handle on this now, it will become way worse in a few months. So consider getting him cut in a few months if his behavior doesn't change.
I would be interested to know at what age he was weaned, not when did you bring him home, but when he was weaned from his mother and what kind of interaction he had with adult dogs after that point.
dpernisieUser is Offline
Newton, MA

Posts:15


03/10/2009 10:18 AM  

I'd like to chime in here as well and know I am repeating a fair bit of what has been already shared, but nevertheless...  I have not read anything that indicates to me a “hard” dog or a particularly extreme case.  Our female puppy Juneau is now 6 months old and is becoming a wonderful little dog.  However, it was not always so.  In the 3-4 month old period, we certainly were getting frustrated with her behavior and it sounds similar to what is being described.  For what its worth, I believe that if you get clear leadership in place and make it a little easier for Wyatt to succeed, time will solve most of what I am reading about here.  Juneau used to nip at us, get more fired up with each correction, bite at our heels, growl, try to instigate play fighting – all of it.  And we have two daughters, a 3 year old and an 8 month old to add to the excitement.

 

I would make sure you have established your and your family’s leadership over the puppy.  This starts with the basics.  Pup should be required to submit in order to enjoy any positive things, ie sit before being fed, sit before being let out of crate, sit before exiting/entering house etc.  NEVER playfight when he instigates it – in fact, given the behavior, I would not playfight at all with him until he understands this is a privilege that you, as the BOSS get to choose.  I would never have him come up on the couch if he asks to – only if you invite him.  I would put your hands in his food regularly to let him know he DOES NOT own his food, YOU do.  This is a really critical developmental period for the puppy in figuring out the hierarchy and the message needs to be clear – he is low man on the totem pole.  I would consider withdrawing your attention from him as a VERY strong disincentive for bad behavior – likely will have a much greater impact than a thump on the butt or even a scruff shake.  His nipping, growling etc has likely always resulted in more attention, not less and he may well be getting the wrong message.  Bite training is very important in the sporting dog breeds that are naturally VERY oral.  If Juneau nipped at our heels or our clothes unprovoked, we grabbed her collar or scruff, gave her a sharp “NO”, and she was crated for a few minutes to separate her from us.  Nipping is fundamentally different from biting – still important to correct because it is unwanted and can cause hurt, but it is usually an attention getting technique in puppies and not an aggressive behavior.

 

As for the kids, we have had our 3 year old (closely supervised) train and treat Juneau from very early on.  She now comes running when Lucy calls, and sits and lays down for her on command.  I think this has helped to increase her respect for little Lucy who certainly could be easily overpowered by the puppy.

 

As for the undesired chewing, my opinion is that it needs to be two-pronged: 1) verbal correction command such as “NO!” or “NO BITE”, as well as 2) a redirect and praise for acceptable chewing on a toy etc.  Others feel otherwise, but we have had very good success with rawhide bones for chewtoy training, as long as we keep an eye on how soft it is getting.  Remember that puppies like variety in their toys so rather than having a bunch of toys lying around, keep only a couple out and cycle them so that they remain novel and interesting, otherwise they are not an appealing diversion from the furniture chewing.  It is as or more important to reward the behavior you want, then to just try to reprimand for the behavior you don’t want.

 

With some strong, positive leadership and patience I think you will have a great dog.

List_HouseUser is Offline
Midland, Pa (western, Pa)
MH
MH
Posts:142


03/10/2009 10:29 AM  

All thank you for your input. Getting rid of him will be a very last resort.

Currently, He sits and waits to be told to go out or in any door after all people have gone out or in. For his food he waits until told it is ok to eat. When eating I on occassion pick up food make him sit and wait again. There is no aggresive behavior what so ever. We have a 3yo who is very physical and she gets the most respect from the dog. She hugs his neck and rubs him and pulls around without any problems. The problems seem to be isolated to those times when he goes in what I would call a puppy terror. Then the kids back away and he continues to dominate by moving forward and niping. This is why I have tried with the 8yo to have him stand and dominate Wyatt and it has helped but he still gets a few nips in before becoming submissive. By the way the kids are always supervised with the dog. We are just not right on top of him but never more than a few feet away.

We will stop all on couch allowance. Should he be put in a crate more often? My wife puts him in when he gets out of control to help settle him down.

He was weaned at 6weeks and had no interaction with adult dogs from 6-10 weeks.  We didn't get until 10 weeks because of a parvo scare with some of his littermates. 

I will try to get a video of it posted and have you folks take a look.

JCKUser is Offline

SH
SH
Posts:44


03/10/2009 10:33 AM  
I don't have much to add beyond what has been already said, but don't expect miracles overnight, and be consistent.

Our dog, who is admittedly quite submissive, is still very persistent when she wants something. She responds to our corrections, but we still (after many months) have to stop her from putting her chin on the table while we eat, etc. She eventually listens and gives up, but even now still tries.

It's very hard to see progress at times, but you just have to stick with it. You can't let your dog get away with undesired behavior, or teach them that being persistent gets them what they want. If you give in after their fifth attempt, you're just teaching them to be very, very persistent, rather than discouraging the behavior.

I would also suggest heaping lots of affection and attention when the dog is being good (lying quietly and relaxing). Because, as others have noted, sometimes even negative attention is better than none. If you only give the dog attention when he is acting crazy, you may be unintentionally reinforcing the crazy behavior.

everbellUser is Offline
Kanata, ON
MH
MH
Posts:3164


03/10/2009 10:36 AM  
Bo would absolutely not settle down when he was a puppy unless we crated him. We likened him to an overtired child and that was when the bad behaviours showed up (humping, jumping, biting). After an enforced nap (an hour or so) out of the flow of traffic, he was back being a sweet little pup. Note that these naps happened more frequently when he was younger and have been weaned out since he was about a year old.

Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
MH
MH
Posts:7835


03/10/2009 11:36 AM  

I was just going to add what everbell added.  I saw the bad behavior come out on both Halo and Ringo when they got tired.  I even gave it a name when Halo was a puppy, the crazy Halo (for those of you that saw Hunt for Red October the name was taken from the Crazy Ivan when the sub would circle back.  Halo would do crazy running loops in the house when she was going into this mode.). Anyway I still have to put Ringo in time out for naps when he gets really tired.  He turns into a wild man and goes nuts.  He usually picks on his sisters.  Belle will reprimand him, but Halo has started joining in on the game.  Anyway what always has worked for me was putting the tired dog in the crate in a quiet room and letting them rest for an hour or two.  When they come out they are settled down and sweet again.


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
MarieUser is Offline
Wisconsin
MH
MH
Posts:2721


03/10/2009 11:40 AM  

Very good advice from all Another plan is just use good common sense by not placing your pup in situations where he is not good or unsure of how he will react in. Example: We took Rocky along to our son Dennis's house to help him on house remodling project. Dennis has a cat along side his 2 house dogs(Lab and Golden Retriever). Called ahead of our arrival , had Dennis put his cat in the bedroom. Rocky then entered the house, greeted the humans and dogs then all dogs went outside to play in Dennis's fenced backyard. Afterwards we drove to Lowes to pick up some more building supplies. I was in the truck with Rocky when one of the helpful Lowes employees wanted to reach in our truck and pet Rocky. I advised him not too as not as Rocky has a full set of teeth. Rocky showed no anger and was wagging his tail, but I just was using common sense . Rocky is not outside when the mail is being delivered. At the Vet during Rocky's nail trim he wears a muzzel.I do this with Rocky just to be on the safe side as he does have a full set of canine teeth.   If neighorhood kids are skateboarding on our streets while zooming bikes on sidewalks,I just make sure Rocky stays in the house or secure fenced yard...Hats off To the GSPs who canbe trusted in all situations . But as a breed, the GSP is a no nonsense upland bird dog first  Use your  good common sense and all will go well


Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231
TessaGAUser is Offline
Georgia
MH
MH
Posts:2387


03/10/2009 12:05 PM  
All excellent advice you are receiving here.

Of course we don't know what you already have tried, how well you executed it when you tried it, and what a typical day in your household looks like. And while I second what everyone else said - adequate exercise, house rules, training sessions, quiet time, establishing leadership, consistency, clear communication, common sense, etc, it may still be helpful to have a knowledgable outside person come to your house and see everyone interact with the pup and the pup interact with all of you. A lot can be learned from context.

As I say often, when things go wrong with my dog, I take a long hard look at myself and my actions or lack of them to see where I myself went wrong. It's much easier for an outside person (trainer) to see where mistakes are made, and it's one of the reasons why I enroll in obedience classes with my dogs.

Of course, yours is a much more complex (family) situation than I have to deal with.

To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
My creation
TheLittleBlackBookUser is Offline
FL

Posts:40


03/10/2009 12:48 PM  

I think it's important that people remember that dogs are animals, not human. They don't have a sense of "right & wrong," they have basic instincts, so it is important to deal with them in a basic manner rather than a complex manner. There have been some excellenct pieces of advise given here, but some not-so-excellent pieces of advise.

To begin with, a GSP is a sporting dog. Many of the finest sporting dogs are so great at their jobs because of drive, and the will to be the best. Very oftentimes, the most willfull, obnoxious, stubborn young pups make for the greatest performers in the field. Not every dog is meant to lay at your feet and be a submissive wet noodle. A truly good sporting dog isn't happy unless it's working or at least unless it has periods of the day in which it is working.

When I have a young pup that demonstrates a tremendous will to dominate and control, I allow the animal to express this drive, for the most part, except of course with me. I agree with the previous advise of "correcting" any aggressive behavior toward the owner, but yet a person should still be pleased they have an "alpha" dog and not a submissive dog. Any sporting dog should feel he "owns the world," except for his owner. Therfore, any dog that tries to be "alpha" again is demonstrating a genetic tendency to "be the best" and to "be number one," because that is what they're supposed to do! The trick is to keep this bravado in the dog, while yet discouraging the bravado at being directed toward the owner.

A competent owner therefore makes his dog submit "to him" (or "to her"), but yet still appreciates the budding drive in the fledgling animal and is careful not to extinguish this drive completely.

I agree with the posts about consistent and proportional correction. Some dogs will literally need a "knuckle sandwitch" to get the idea, while others will respond to a stern voice and/or a grab of the scruff as correction. There is no "one" anwer; it really just depends on the dog. In some cases, what you wind-up having is "too much dog, not enough owner," and so the dog will begin to take control over or the owner, who either becomes intimidated by the dog and/or lacks the resolve to provide consistent and authoritative discipline for it.

However, with the proper balance of appreciating a superior pup's desire to dominate, and blending it with an owner's desire to gain the respect and control of the animal necessary to provide guidance, an ideal balance can be made and an excellent animal developed.

However, not all dogs are meant to be "pets," and not all people are meant to have a sporting dog, so with an improper balance, either the owner is going to lose control, or the natural spirit the animal is trying to expressed will be dampened.

The key lies in maintaining the proper appreciation and desire of both ends being met: the dog feeling "on top of the world," and yet with caveat of the dog being conditioned to realize his owner is the one who ultimately rules his world, but yet is behind him and not against him.


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pixie beeUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:4448


03/10/2009 1:25 PM  
There is s difference between dominant and aggressive dominant.
All dogs should be able to be house dogs. Being a sporting dog does not, at all, suggest that the dog needs to work every day or any day. the dog should be able to control itself and if it can't it is either unbalanced or the owner is unable to teach the dog how to control itself. Part of this learning of control comes thru obedience. Puppies need exercise but if not given the puppy should not show aggressive tendencies.This puppy is given enough daily exercise that it is safe to say pent up energy is not the issue.
The owner of this 4 month old puppy has said that the puppy not only growls but when confronted by and adult male the puppy has been vocal in his defiance.
I have 2 dominant males. Not one of them has ever tried to mouth or growl or display any aggressive tendencies toward children or adults. This is a red flag. Only b/c of the children do I say give up the dog. We all want to be responsible but we have to be responsilbe in our comminment to our family, as well.
BTW, Hhving owned several dominant male hunting dogs I do not agree with the above post.


"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
MH
MH
Posts:7835


03/10/2009 1:43 PM  

LittleBlackBook - I am assuming you are new to the forum since I haven't seen you post before. Why don't you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your dogs? Can I assume you have GSPs? How many? and Please post some pictures of your dogs. We all love pictures and love sharing picts of our dogs.


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
MegCUser is Offline
Ellensburg, WA
MH
MH
Posts:989


03/10/2009 1:54 PM  
Is this normal rambunctious puppy behavior?
Is this normal rambunctious puppy behavior with added environmental twists?
Is this normal rambunctious GSP puppy behavior?
Is this normal rambunctious GSP puppy behavior that hasn't been properly channeled?
Is this unusually pushy behavior?
Is this a basic temperament issue?
Is this behavior that will be easily solved by you in your home setup?
Is this behavior that will be difficult but possible to solve in your home setup?
Is this behavior better solved by someone else in a different environment?
Is this behavior completely non-fixable?

LH- note that it's all well and good to play doggie behavior doc on the internet, and there's some really good thoughts from every angle that's been expressed in this thread so far. HOWEVER: NONE of this is a substitute for getting a knowledgeable person involved for a first hand assessment, particularly if there's any chance that kids might get hurt now or in the future.

I'm specifically concerned with your description of when you physically correct this pup he's occasionally putting up a very active fight back. That isn't common in the 4 month old pups I've been around, and is my 'red flag' for potential trouble down the road unless nipped in the bud right away.

Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here!
TessaGAUser is Offline
Georgia
MH
MH
Posts:2387


03/10/2009 2:05 PM  
This probably has nothing to do with anything but I vaguely remember...isnt that the puppy from the parvo litter? Could they/he have been handled in a way during that parvo incident, in a way that "traumatized" him? How old where they when they had Parvo? Did his littermates survive or was he one of only a few survivors?

Just a thought.

To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
My creation
JCKUser is Offline

SH
SH
Posts:44


03/10/2009 2:42 PM  
Agree with MegC. I'm having a very difficult time understanding whether this is normal crazy puppy behavior or not.

Some mouthiness is certainly normal in puppies. Real biting is not.

Acting completely insane is normal and will pass. I can't tell if this behavior goes beyond normal insanity.

He sounds like a handful, but I think all puppies are, to some extent.



List_HouseUser is Offline
Midland, Pa (western, Pa)
MH
MH
Posts:142


03/10/2009 3:30 PM  
All I really appreciate the time and thoughts going into your posts!

I may be painting wyatt into a bad picture. The only act that I ever considered an agressive move was the waking up growl. All others are the bouncing back and forth, being vocal, nipping at your clothes, looking semi-submissive but pushing the boundaries like kids do. These behaviors are only exhibited to Me when he hits the tired stage and flies of the handle. The dog feel the dog see's me as alpha but likes to see what he can get away with (and we do not let him). As for the kids we need to do a better job of making them dominate. How can I do that. I thought making them do it themselves would work. Or should I say if I was with them while the do it I thought he would just see me and repeat the behavior if I was not around.

Yes this was the litter that had the Parvo scare. No puppies died per the breeder. Our puppy never showed any signs. The only traumatic experience would have been when the sick littermates were taken away for a few days to the vet.

My thoughts are this is an alpha dog. We have done a poor job of making the kids dominate. And he is a GSP, they are energetic, smart, driven and ours happens to be a little more oral then others. I AM NOT DISSMISSING his behavior. I would like to hear those who haven't already given ideas. Ideas on how to make him see the kids as dominate.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!
WildRoseUser is Offline
Seymour Texas
MH
MH
Posts:471


03/10/2009 3:39 PM  
Posted By List_House on 02/04/2009 5:12 PM

We are starting to have some problems with our pup so I wanted to get some ideas from folks with experience.  The problems are Wyatt will get crazy and start biting.  If you get up to get away and ingnore he just bites your pants.  We have gone as far as giving him a thump on the butt and he doesn't stop.  Today my wife said he actually growled at her when she thumped him because he would not stop biting the furniture.  I told my wife to put him in the crate when he gets out of control and she said she does but he comes out and goes back to it. 

He has lots of toys but always wants something else!  As far as excercise I take him for a walk off leash in the woods before work, my son will take him for a walk when he comes home from school, I do another off leash walk in hte woods after work.  When its cold like this morning, Wyatt actually stopped walking in the woods and started heading back towards the house after 20min.  I also will work with him in the evenings in the house on sit and stay.  I will take some treats and spread them around the living room for him to find.

My wife is home during the day but babysits kids and does lots of other chores so she doesn't have lots of time to just follow Wyatt around. 

Any Ideas what the problem could be?  What can we do different?

Nothing to be alarmed over just normal puppy play.  Your dog needs more attention and more exercise and this is his way of telling you both.

Tell him no, pick him up, carry him outside and play fetch or just take him for a walk.  Give him more exercise during the day.  Tired puppies are good puppies! CR


There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... .
everbellUser is Offline
Kanata, ON
MH
MH
Posts:3164


03/10/2009 3:46 PM  
Having a lot of toys can be just as bad as not enough. They are overwhlemed by the choice and do know what to play with. Trying leaving only 1 or 2 toys out.

Even at 2 years, Bo has never been a "play by himself" kind of dog. He needs interaction with either my husband or I (or both of us) with any of his toys. He rarely goes outside and hangs out by himself (except in the summer when he takes over my swing and sunbathes).

The only thing that keeps him independently busy are chew toys: bull pizzels or bones.

Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
MH
MH
Posts:7835


03/10/2009 3:59 PM  

If you haven't already, put the kids in charge of feeding him.  Of course you supervise, but the pup will learn that food comes from the kiddos.  Have them make him sit before they put his food down.  Also, keep up lessons with the kids handling.  Even at an early age kids love to make a dog sit or down. Also, when they are playing and he starts the chase with the kids, tell the kids not to run from him.  That just get him going harder and kicks in his chase instinct.  If he gets too rowdy with the kids, tell them to stop and go inside.  They don't even have to say anything.  Then you pick the dog up and put him in his crate.

I also agree with what Wildrose said about more exercise.  These pups, especially the high energy ones can not get enough. Just remember when he gets over tired though he may act out, so bring him home and let him nap. Since summer is coming up fast, a good and easy way to tire them out is let them swim.  I used to take Halo to the beach and let her swim along the shoreline in the bay as I walked on the shore.  She loved it, became a very strong swimmer and it would tire her out.


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
List_HouseUser is Offline
Midland, Pa (western, Pa)
MH
MH
Posts:142


03/11/2009 9:20 AM  
I never thought of this before but can he be trying to dominate at home but not with other dogs. He is very shy around other dogs. He has only been around a Black Lab 1 month older that really dominates him. On his first encounter it took him 45 min to warm up to the lab. He was scared and wanted to stay away?????
MillerClemsonHDUser is Offline

JH
JH
Posts:36


03/11/2009 10:02 AM  
How old is the pup? I'm guessing from the Perfect Start/Finish you are planning on hunting. If the pup is 6mos or over I would start working on some of the basic obedience, Here, Heel, Whoa etc in the yard. Once the pup has a good understanding have your wife and kids watch, then have your wife work with the dog on the same commands. If the 8yo can handle it would be good for them to do some of it as well. Obviously keep it short 15 mins or so if you have the pups attention that long. Work on here some in the woods on your walks.

Have you started any field training/exposure other than the walks in the woods? What about spending 1 Saturday a month with a training in your area to get him exposed to birds, other dogs, stake outs, etc. Then you might be able to get some advice on what to work on with him before your next visit and should be able to get some obedience help as well.

My pup is all out in the field, and she is great in the house. If she doesn't get enough exercise for 2 days in a row she is a bit of a terror and lets us know and she gets some exercise. Even if that means a few laps around the block for me at 10 or 11 or throwing the ball in the yard so she can blow off some steam.

GSPs are smart and they need a purpose and its our job to give it to them. Whether its hunting, agility, running, dock jumping or whatever. They need to be mentally and physically challenged.
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