Welcome to

          shorthairs.net

  Login  Register Saturday, May 18, 2013     
Subject: LOOKING FOR HELP
Prev Next
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Page 1 of 3123 > >>
Author Messages
List_HouseUser is Offline
Midland, Pa (western, Pa)
MH
MH
Posts:142


02/04/2009 5:12 PM  

We are starting to have some problems with our pup so I wanted to get some ideas from folks with experience.  The problems are Wyatt will get crazy and start biting.  If you get up to get away and ingnore he just bites your pants.  We have gone as far as giving him a thump on the butt and he doesn't stop.  Today my wife said he actually growled at her when she thumped him because he would not stop biting the furniture.  I told my wife to put him in the crate when he gets out of control and she said she does but he comes out and goes back to it. 

He has lots of toys but always wants something else!  As far as excercise I take him for a walk off leash in the woods before work, my son will take him for a walk when he comes home from school, I do another off leash walk in hte woods after work.  When its cold like this morning, Wyatt actually stopped walking in the woods and started heading back towards the house after 20min.  I also will work with him in the evenings in the house on sit and stay.  I will take some treats and spread them around the living room for him to find.

My wife is home during the day but babysits kids and does lots of other chores so she doesn't have lots of time to just follow Wyatt around. 

Any Ideas what the problem could be?  What can we do different?

MegCUser is Offline
Ellensburg, WA
MH
MH
Posts:989


02/04/2009 6:12 PM  
Boy does this sound familiar.... Rogan was the hell-pup. He came home at 7 weeks old, and within 48 hours he had snapped/snarled at husband for taking his chew toy away, snarled at me for (gently) correcting him on biting, and chomped Dulcie in the butt (she was ignoring him- he wasn't going to let it go that easily). All three of us unloaded on him reflexively as he pulled these stunts. It was clear that it made him think, and it made him quit doing those *particular* things, but hardly crushed his spirit... he just went right on to other methods of staging his planetary takeover.

Thus the battle was engaged.

Rogan was SO tough as a pup, I thought we had some kind of mutant on our hands until I read this article:
http://leerburg.com/hardpuppy.htm
Good gravy, did that describe Rogan to a T! So we upped our ante, spent more time with him, and I picked up a clicker since some days seemed like a nonstop battle and I wanted to find a balance somewhere in there.

Today at 8 years old, Rogan is still a classic hard dog that needs a firm reminder from time to time, but he's also really a lot of fun. Visitors inevitably end up playing with him because Rogan ALWAYS wants to play. My toddler lets him out of the crate and chases him around the house, and he just 'smiles' and wags his tail. Even if she's screaming and bonking him on the head with a pillow (before I take it away and tell her to pipe down, lol).

*IF* your pup is one of these... and while I don't agree with all the advice in the article, I agree that extraordinarily tough pups exist and that they're rare, so read it carefully and make sure that's indeed what you're dealing with... you're going to need to get your game face on and really dig into serious training early. Battles need to be engaged on YOUR terms, and they need to be won. This is serious business because these types of dogs can easily become euth candidates as adults if they're out of control.

Unless you're very confident you can deal with this 100%, getting a pro trainer involved that's used to dealing with working dogs* is a good idea. We live in an extremely rural area so this option wasn't available to us when Rogan was little, and I sure could have used a little moral support if nothing else.

*IMO these types of pups are just NOT the realm of your average pet retriever trainer. Casual conversations with the few trainers in our area at the time revealed that they would have been at least as overwhelmed as I was by Rogan, perhaps moreso because they were firm disciples of specific training methodologies that don't necessarily translate well to dogs at the fringes of the bell curve. In retrospect what I SHOULD have done was talk to "The Bird Dog Guy Down in the Valley", because he was/is a pragmatic sort would have known exactly what I was into and known that there was light at the end of the tunnel if I could just stay tough and keep the lil' rascal challenged.

Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here!
TessaGAUser is Offline
Georgia
MH
MH
Posts:2387


02/04/2009 7:49 PM  
My previous dog was a hell of a puppy too. American Bulldog, latching onto my arm (jacket) at 9 weeks old and I could hardly get her off. Very smart and easy to train but just nuts most of the time. I seriously thought I had gotten a "defective" dog and I understand what you must be going through now. It's just not what one expects when bringing a puppy home.

Adolescence was even worse than puppyhood, she was so over the top but with a firm hand we made it through and she became the most wonderful dog. I did need some help though from my breeder/trainer friends.

If the suggestions we gave in your previous thread don't help, you may want to find a good trainer (or maybe the breeder can help), an outside party that can observe the pup, his behaviour - and your behaviour. When things go wrong (or go nowhere) with my dogs I always look at myself first to see what I am doing wrong. Am I communicating clearly with the dog? Are my corrections well-timed? Too strong? Not strong enough? Is the dog stressed?

I know how to train a dog but still always enroll in dog obedience classes, for the group setting/distractions and also because the trainer watches me work and can point out things I am doing wrong, that I may not be aware of.

To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
My creation
List_HouseUser is Offline
Midland, Pa (western, Pa)
MH
MH
Posts:142


02/04/2009 8:53 PM  
Thanks! That does describe our Wyatt. Its funny I just tried the "pop" last night when he started biting my socks instead of his toys. It seemed to work and I explained it to my wife this morning. I will work with her when I get home tomorrow. I will let you know how it works!

Thanks again
everbellUser is Offline
Kanata, ON
MH
MH
Posts:3162


02/05/2009 5:41 AM  
When Bo was a pup we were a sponge for any and all recommendations. I found a lot of what worked for other dogs did not work for him. For instance, turning your back on him when he misbehaves ... he would take that as an opportunity to jump up my back. If I sat on the ground, he took that as an invitation to chew my hair. If I had long sleeves on, he took that as an opportunity to chew the cuff.

He was a little hellion for awhile -- probably my inexperience with dogs, and my husband's inexperience with training dogs (also, my husband's dad was dying of cancer, which meant we did the best we could with the time we had).

On the plus side, Bo is SUPER food motivated, so once we figured that out, it was a lot easier to get him to cooperate.

Two things probably saved our sanity: crate training and enforced naps. Getting him neutered (at 15 months) really made a difference too. From that point on, he became a lot easier to deal with and we could trust him off-leash which REALLY helped. He's still not perfect, but at almost 2 years, he is exactly the dog I expected and wanted.

Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures
MegCUser is Offline
Ellensburg, WA
MH
MH
Posts:989


02/05/2009 8:49 AM  
Posted By everbell on 02/05/2009 5:41 AM
... I found a lot of what worked for other dogs did not work for him. For instance, turning your back on him when he misbehaves ... he would take that as an opportunity to jump up my back. If I sat on the ground, he took that as an invitation to chew my hair. If I had long sleeves on, he took that as an opportunity to chew the cuff....


Exactly. I had the local trainer that sold me the clickers insist that ignoring Rogan's bad behaviors and focusing on something else would make them go away. I just smiled and played nice and promptly filed that advice in the 'for a different dog' file, because with a pup this hard & driven & preditory they don't NEED someone's attention to make shredding pant legs all afternoon quite enjoyable. They're like a missle with their guidence system pre-set on 'random', and they're perfectly happy to let you go about your business as they go about theirs (how often did I quote Oppenheimer as I grabbed Rogan-puppy from whatever he was doing: "Behold, I am the destroyer of worlds!").

I neutered Rogan at 6 months because in spite of everything we were doing, he was starting to get surly with my husband. Neutering seemed to dial that down considerably (note not totally evaporate- we still had work to do). I would have been willing to wait longer if he hadn't been driving us insane.

A super solid DOWN is really important with dogs like this IMO. If you can make hit-the-deck/long downs mandatory from puppyhood on, you'll have an important tool in the box to deal with the rascal when they get too wound up or full of themselves.


Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here!
carlower1User is Offline
Kansas
MH
MH
Posts:1253


02/05/2009 8:54 AM  
When Wachter started that we trained him on a "trade me" if he was chewing something we didn't want him chewing on.. I would trade him for something he COULD chew on.. then once he started chewing on that he would be praised... NOW word of warning.. it DID work!! but he also learned that if he wanted a new chewie.. he would just bring me something he knew I didn't want him to have.

Carrie
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
MH
MH
Posts:7834


02/05/2009 12:09 PM  
My girls were a piece of cake compared to Ringo. He has destroyed and gotten into more things than I could even begin to anticipate. Moose is right, ignoring just means he has time all to his self to tear up a leather chair or whatever. Although I would not call Ringo a hard puppy, just an industrious puppy. He is pretty happy go lucky and does not bite or growl over anything. He just gets into trouble...allot.

So stay after it and don't let it escalate. Good luck!!

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
pixie beeUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:4448


02/05/2009 12:45 PM  
I think that the term "hardness" is widely misused and ought to be carefully thought out before branding this puppy "hard". To me hardness is simply the ability to bounce back quickly from a negative experience,such as a correction,a dog fight,pain,ect.
The mere fact that this dog is biting, does not take a correction seriously and such should not automatically be termed hard. He in fact could be sensative to timid, for all we know. And since he is so young we really know nothing about his temperment.
No offense,just mentioning other possibilities.
Maybe he is dumb,hard-headed, has no idea how to relate the punishment to the crime, the correction is more then 2 seconds after the crime,he doesn't respect the person making the correction, he doesn't respect anyone,ect.
This all does not point to a hard puppy. It points to a confused puppy. Maybe he needs more time to learn the rules better.
Just a thought,

Francine



"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
MH
MH
Posts:7834


02/05/2009 1:07 PM  

I agree with pixie.  For example, Belle at that age would not do what I asked her, was hard headed, got into trouble chewing on everything, but was in fact a very soft pup.  She still is for that matter.  A correction, harsh or otherwise shuts her down quick.  For Belle the problem was simply boredom and loneliness. At the time we had to leave her at home alone during the day because I did not work from home at that time.  With that much time to herself she created things to keep herself entertained.  Even when I tried toys, puzzles, more exercise, etc.  She still got into trouble.  Understand too that I was training her in obedience and agility at that time.  So her brain was active and so was she.  The thing that solved the problem with Belle was getting Halo.  It was night and day difference.  Now I am not suggesting someone go out and get another GSP to solve problems, just that that is what worked for me and Belle.

So, the moral is keep an open mind and examine all the possibilities before you brand the dog. I had several folks tell me Belle had separation anxiety.  Not so.  She didn't have any other problem, but an active GSP brain, youth, and time.  That is a deadly combo with a GSP.


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
List_HouseUser is Offline
Midland, Pa (western, Pa)
MH
MH
Posts:142


02/05/2009 3:46 PM  

All great responses, I would lable Wyatt hard yet but he is def not soft. I have the Perfect start videos and they show what soft would be and I have read. For example Wyatt will sit by the sink in the kitchen (heat vent right there) He will become for lack of better term bored or excited and decide to mouth the cabinets. We give him a "Wyatt NO" and he stops looks at you with that GSP face that says "COME ON" the waits about 7 sec and does it again. Also while on leash I will gently pop him to teach heel. He has yet to not bounce back immeadiately. When he first started the getting "crazy" and biting what ever I have snatched his scruff and that did not stop him. The closest I came to seeing him stop was when I "popped" his collar on Tuesday night. I have been out of town so I will see what happens tonight.

I have told my wife to crate him if he gets to crazy but she says he would end up crated more than out. What are some time frames that you folks use in the crate. We are also working on the treadmill but it doesn't seem to work so well right now????

Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
MH
MH
Posts:7834


02/05/2009 4:30 PM  

My 8 month old does something similar only he runs madly through the house and rams into things or jumps on furniture, etc.  When he gets going so does my 3 year old and together it is like a tornado going through the house.  So, I have started working on settle.  I can usually predict when this will happen, mostly when he comes into the house from outside or when someone comes over.  Both elicit allot of excitement.  So, I grab him and put him into a sit and tell him settle.  I sometimes have to hold him by the collar.  Once he is settled he gets released.  When released if he reverts to the wild craziness I grab him again and tell him to settle.  It sometimes takes three or four times.  I always stay very calm and keep my voice soft and calming.  It seems to work for  him.  I also will put him in the crate on rainy days when he can't be outside playing.  On those days I have sometimes left him in the crate 4 hours, even when I am home.  He is not unhappy and it keeps him out of trouble while I work. Popping the collar is good because it gets there attention without any loud yelling, etc.

Just from the description it sounds like Wyatt is looking for attention, any kind, even negative.  So, keep the response low key.  I would grab him the first occurrence and march him off to his crate for a timeout.  Leave him about an hour.  When he gets out if he repeats, put him back in his crate. 


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
everbellUser is Offline
Kanata, ON
MH
MH
Posts:3162


02/05/2009 5:40 PM  
Bo averages probably 16 to 18 hours a day in his crate. I know this may sound like a lot but consider that: he gets up at 4 a.m. and goes back into his crate at 6 a.m. (if we are both going to work) he is let out for a midday pee and poop by our dog-walker and gets out of his crate at 4 p.m. He is out of bed until we put him home for the night (around 9:30 p.m.)

If my husband is working at home (which he does 2 or 3 times a week), the only difference is, that instead of being in his crate all day, he sleeps on the couch.

He gets lots of exercise (from my husband, who is a marathon runner).

Note: this routine only started when he was about 1 year old. Before then, we couldn't trust him out of his crate if we weren't in the same room. We have slowly given him more room to roam as he has proven himself trustworthy. And we had to given him enforced naps mid-way through the evening.


Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures
pixie beeUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:4448


02/05/2009 5:46 PM  
How old is Wyatt? Do you really expect a puppy at this age to stop because you said NO???
After about 7 seconds he even FORGOT that he WAS chewing the cabinets.
You are dealing with attention span issues and a family that thinks their dog is more mature then what he is.There are many more shades between soft and hard.
I know you love him but you need to put things in perspective.
He is puppy. He will do everything he is not supposed to do a million times, he will ignore known commands a million more times and he will make you think you are way more short tempered then you ever thought you were. So, if someone can survive puppyhood then you can survive most anything. And wait, wait until he gets between 7 months and 15 months old. You'll for sure wonder what the hell you were thinking when you brought that cute little,happy,bundle of pure terror to your home. Hope your wife and kids have a sense of humor. Believe me, they'll need it. You can't imagine how many times my husband has had to draw upon his, and I have good dogs.



"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
List_HouseUser is Offline
Midland, Pa (western, Pa)
MH
MH
Posts:142


03/09/2009 7:16 PM  

Well here we are Wyatt is 4mo and we are still having problems with him "biting". I put in quotes because I don't think they are of vicious intent but even so he is leaving marks and cuts on the kids. It's mostly during any type of wrestling or running, excitable activity. For me if I stand up and say no and move toward him, he will usuallly submit but has increasingly started to bark in protest before doing so. With my 8yo son he does not submit and will jump and bite at his clothes sometimes getting skin. If he does get clothes he latches on and will pull/shake. The more aggresive of an approach you take towards him the more aggresive he gets. I have had enough more than once and popped him on the butt or the snout and he comes back more agitated than before. I take him for a good 30 min off leash walk in the woods between 1-2 times a week and then 1-3 hour walks on the weekends.

I need to remedy this before a bad bite comes because the Kids surely come before the dog!

Also sometimes when sleeping if you pet him he will growl vicously. This weekend I pushed it to see how bad it would get. He bit my finger. Now the circumstances. He was on the couch with us sleeping. My 5yo petting his ribs/belly and he started to growl. So I continued gently petting. His aggression got worse, I thought I woke him up. So he continued to growl. I pushed him of the couch aggresivley and on the way down he got my finger. I was pretty upset so I jumped down and got into his face and he continued to escalate. I was looking at his eyes and his pupil were getting big and then small and then big. So I thought maybe he wasn't awake. So I began calling his name and he snapped out of it.

What do you guys think??????

TessaGAUser is Offline
Georgia
MH
MH
Posts:2387


03/09/2009 7:45 PM  
Re biting...no clue. It's really, really hard to gauge from afar without ever having met the pup or your household. Lots of things come into play, I would suggest get help from a trainer/behaviorist that can observe this first hand. Everything else you will hear here is just speculation.

30 minutes 1-2 a week may not be enough. When Tessa was that age, she got about 30-45 minutes in the a.m. (some walking, some romping around on grass) and again in the p.m. plus daily trips to downtown, stores, the field etc for socialization and conditioning. You can't and shouldn't really do as much with a 4-month old yet but 30 minutes 1-2 a week is not enough. That may or may not be part of the problem.


To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
My creation
List_HouseUser is Offline
Midland, Pa (western, Pa)
MH
MH
Posts:142


03/09/2009 8:11 PM  

Thanks Tessa - I will be working on getting more time.  However I should clarify.  30 min 1-3 times a week is the off leash walk in the woods with me.  Everyday he is in the house with our kids plus others who my wife babysits.  They are playing tug of war and running around.  We also have a fenced back yard so now with the warmer weather he will be outside all day with the kids running around.  This is where the most recent incident happened.  The 5 yo was ridding her tricycle down the hill in the back yard.  Wyatt runs along side.  She crashed and burned I am sure screaming and laughing (I have very loud kids). He in an excited state ran up and nipped her as she was on the ground getting up.  The problem is he does not nip easy and on her hip there is "rake marks" from his teeth.  He is only in a crate during the day if my wife has to go run errands or he becomes a little to out of control.

MegCUser is Offline
Ellensburg, WA
MH
MH
Posts:989


03/09/2009 8:44 PM  
I think you'd better get a pro involved sooner rather than later. A 4 month old pup shouldn't be snarling at anyone for any reason, and if you don't stop that kind of thing ASAP it's only going to get more difficult as teenage hormones kick in. It's hard to tell from here, but with that much challenging at this early of an age it sure sounds like you've got a project on your hands (and a very familiar project at that, so don't loose hope).

Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here!
escampbellUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:213


03/09/2009 8:51 PM  
That last post said a lot. IMO, a young pup should not be running around relatively unsupervised with lots of loud, excitable kids. The fact he is crated very little and running willd much of the day, is only serving to get him overly excited. There is nothing wrong with kids being loud and excited. I mean, they are kids! But, as I said, I am pretty sure they are revving Wyatt up. I am also pretty sure that Wyatt thinks he can push the kids around, because they treat him like an equal, instead of like a dog.

Some pups are alpha/bossy pups and he sounds like one of them. Growling is unacceptable. This pup should NOT be on the couch with the humans, but on the floor. His behavior is showing that he has not earned the privilege. Yes, he could have still been asleep. But he should be sleeping in his crate on the floor.

I second the recommendation that you consult a trainer. Either enroll him in a good puppy obedience class or have a trainer come to your house. But, if you have a trainer come to the house, you still need to be sure Wyatt is getting out and about, learning manners outside the house as well as in.

If he shows any odd behavior, then do also take him to a vet and make sure there is not something else going on. Sometimes physical ailments manifest themselves by a dog being grumpy or testy.

I think we sometimes forget just how stubborn and determined a GSP can be. They need structure, training and they need to understand thier place in the world.

Eleanor in NJ

Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil
pixie beeUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:4448


03/10/2009 5:00 AM  
It all depends on how much you want to put into behavior therapy(time and money). I mean really, did you buy a family pet and hunting companion or a puppy that needs therapy?
I would seriously consider giving him back to the breeder, taking the lose if I had to. They bred an unbalanced dog. I would bet this came from the dam in the whelping box.
I personally, don't buy a dog then think about how to train it to not growl and bite.Any dog that ever puts a tooth on my kids is out the door. Fortunatly, we have not had to do this,ever. There is puppy crap, then there is dog crap. To me, Wyatte is handing you dog crap and it can be dangerous. What if one of your kids accidentally falls on Wyatte when he is sleeping? Your kids may end up with stitches. For what? A $500 puppy that is in behavior therapy?
I know I am tough but, I am a cut and dry person. Dogs are not people, you can give them back.
Best of luck and keep us up to date,
Francine


"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 3123 > >>

Forums > General > General Discussion > LOOKING FOR HELP



ActiveForums 3.7
 Private Message Count
Minimize
You must be logged in to use this module.
UsersOnline
Membership Membership:
Latest New User Latest: CliffBaill
New Today New Today: 0
New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0
User Count Overall: 3204

People Online People Online:
Visitors Visitors: 131
Members Members: 0
Total Total: 131

Online Now Online Now:
 Print   
Home  |  Events  |  Blogs  |  Photo Gallery  |  GSP Forum
 Terms Of Use | Privacy Statement | WHC DNN Site 
Copyright 2008-2011 by Rick Petersen