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Trey

SW Iowa

MH
Posts:516

12/26/2008 7:10 AM
Moose, sorry you were so offended. That was meant as a joke I just use quick reply and it doesn't have the smilies on it. I have no problem with any kind of operatant training, use it my self, I just don't click, I say good (the noise or word is a bridge to reward) not going to repeat what tb just said. But trust me I have read almost everything out there on everytraining method availalbe and use parts of most of them. I will say that if you have a dog without a high natural desire to retrieve, and it gets in the situatuion I stated, you better have a lot of trust,no matter what type of training you have used. I was not belittling therapy work either, in fact I have used the puppy test designed by the guide school for the blind to test pups since I have had gs's. And not trying to speak for Pixie (I would make a joke, but again not smilies and don't want to upset anyone else here), most people can not judge their own dog, or are like me are way to harsh. It is good to have a set of eyes that doesn't love that dog and feed it and play with it every day. I work (and no laughing from those that know me, it is work) in a situation where I see it every day. People come to hunt, tell me for an hour how fabulous the dog is, then it procedes to to and chase just about every bird it encounters, won't even pick up or bring the bird over and stands and chew on it in front of it's owner. Dissapears for long periods or worse yet, won't get out from under their feet (but the owner manages to walk up a few birds and shoot them, so the dog is a hunting machine). I think after the hunt they are going to mention it is an off day, but no, they tell me how great the dog did, and how they are going to breed it. So, yes, the object of most tests is to prove in front of other people what the dog is and what you have trained it to do, from an objective viewpoint, not what you think it might be able to do from your backyard. Anyway, I will go back to not giving my opions as to not offend anyone, it is above 35 below here now, so I think I will take my pups and go kill some birds! Have a good day.

MOOSE1

Fruitport, MI

MH
Posts:1789

12/26/2008 7:26 AM
trey- I wasn't totaly offended by what you or Pixie said and with out the use of smile guys it is hard to inflect what you are trying to say. I totaly get that. I was just really hoping someone wasn't belittleing a great way to train because they haven't done it or researched it themselves. No hard feelings and I do take a lot away from what you post and have learned a lot from your view points so please don't stop posting on this thread. I learned a long time ago not to hold anything against anyone on the message boards. But also to voice something if something offended you so that person and or people can explain themselves a little more to hopefully clear up the miss communication. That is all that happens on these boards I think is the fact that we can't hear eachothers voices or see eachothers reactions etc. we have to read what we think a person is saying and that may not be what they are truly meaning. No hard feelings at all! Good point as well on why you test. I like that view point of it. Personaly I take so many other people out hunting over my dogs that I don't even say if my dog is good or not I let them tell me how things went. If they enjoyed it if they thought the dog worked well. Now I get these same friends calling me back and asking to go out again and bring my dog so that they can find more birds. To me this is the best reward I could get.

Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II www.ezydog.com

pixie bee

MH
Posts:4448

12/26/2008 7:56 AM
I meant no offense to clicker training. I like the method. I don't use it b/c I demand a lot from my dogs and I don't want to "ask" them to do anything. I am telling them to do something.I don't want a refusal and quite frankly, in the German system you can't afford a refusal. A refusal of a command tells me the dog has decided to be in control at that moment. No, the dog is part of the team and I am team leader. Understanding his view point,and sometimes they have a good reason for refusing, does not make it okay. I use the tests to gauge we we are at for the reasons Trey mentioned. The handler and dog need to prove that they can perform to a standard under pressure. If I were to just use my gauge well, then my dogs are perfect. Well, except for the time they did this and that but....they are great hunters and are the most intelligent dogs I have ever seen. yeah, right. LALA Land. There are dogs that ace tests and I wouldn't own or buy a pup out of them. Tests need to be in perspective and the person reading the scores needs to understand what they are reading,how experienced the trainer/handler is,what the prey drive is of the dog and HOW they have trained. This last one is ultra important.And MOST important-you need to see the dog in action. I encourage everyone to test their dogs in venues they are interested in. It is good for the trainer and the dog. And strong bonding is the greatest reward. Love your dog, love what you do together, but stay grounded.

"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle

Rugergundog User is Offline

Saginaw Michigan USA

MH
Posts:395

12/26/2008 7:56 AM
How many of us responding to this thread have tested and witnessed a NA test? I have several times. To make it simple, you can train your dog to jump through a ring of fire, whoa on a postage stamp, etc. Those are not being judged, its the dogs "natural genetic ability". Thus in the water part its confidence is being judged not the retrieve. So commands can be given to get him in the water. In the 20 minute hunt portion. Encouraging commands can be given, but no real directives. 1. Will the dog go in the water with modest encouragement. 2. Will the dog point a bird 3. Will the dog hunt with modest encouragment 4. Will the dog cooperate wtih the handler (hunt with them). 5. Will the dog follow a scent line (track) 6. Will the dog allow gun fire without too much distraction. 7. Is the dog overall healthy.

Saginaw Michigan Brittany- Ruger GSP- Kilian

pixie bee

MH
Posts:4448

12/26/2008 8:06 AM
How is it you don't understand what I am saying? Sorry for sounding rude. But, I bet you use commands,yes? Try doing everything w/o commnads. Then you will see a different trainer and dog. I will apologize again, but for the life of me I can't see why a dog needs to be encouraged to enter the water after a moving object. The prey drive should set in and the dog should go.I understand that during exposure to this the dog can have some confusion or hesitation but this should be cleared up before test day arrives. A dog's natural ability is being judged. Natural ability to do what? Follow a command? Be encouraged and egged on by it's handler?

"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle

Somer

Houston, TX

MH
Posts:280

12/26/2008 8:49 AM
Posted By pixie bee on 12/25/2008 8:27 PM Yes, if I relied on a clicker to get my dog to jump in a box and retrieve a 10+lb fox to me with a sit and hold I think I would be holding my breath for a very long time or have to bring a pretty big steak as a reward. NOT! Google is your friend. The clicker is not a CUE; it doesn't tell a dog to sit or down or fetch. It is used in shaping a behavior so it can then be put on cue. If you know what you are doing you can create a very reliable dog that wants to work with you. Rewards are gradually faded or used intermittenly.

Rugergundog User is Offline

Saginaw Michigan USA

MH
Posts:395

12/26/2008 9:52 AM
I do hear what you are saying regarding commands but I too feel you may be misunderstanding why some of the areas of the NA test are conducted. Indeed command is not needed to encourage a dog to enter the water but is not faulted either. Other areas of the test commands are not allowed and are faulted. Tracking is another area commands are allowed to get the dog started on the desired test....but directives to lead him to the bird are not. The tracking and finding birds are indicators of the dogs nose ability and drive. Commands are allowed to start the task but not "help" the dog. As for the swim, it is called "swim" not search (that is later in the UT). A rubber bumper is tossed in the water.....that is far from any sort of game to spark up prey drive. In fact the test is done just the opposite, if a dead bird has to be thrown in to the water to encourage him to swim he is marked down. The swim portion of the NA test has little to nothing to do with prey drive, its mearly the dogs confidence to swim. If the dog will not swim it will be more difficult for later exposure to have him do water work, work that NAVHDA is 75% focused on, i.e. the versatile label. Judges and regulars to NAVHDA will agree that it is important to expose a dog to these tasks well before the tests. In fact NAVHDA encourages this in its test book.

Saginaw Michigan Brittany- Ruger GSP- Kilian

Trey

SW Iowa

MH
Posts:516

12/26/2008 11:28 AM
Well, off the top of my head this year I think I ran 10 na (not including ut) and witnessed probably well over 100 (would put a smilie here, but again am on quick reply). That said, in order to restore some peace here, I think some people are using the word command instead of talking to the dog. Very few people(can't say I have seen any) stand at the water and dont' say anything, most grab a bumper and talk to or encourage the pup, if you will to get it paying attention to it and toss it in and say 'fetch' or get it or something. And you can bet if someone is using a head (or ear) tap and there is any question they will be asked to not touch their dog. Again telling the pup to track or sniff or find it or fetch at the beginning of a track is not considered a command. If during the search or track or swim the handler has to encourage the dog to work, desire starts to get looked at (unless it is nervous handler, in na only the dog is under judgement and you try to ignore the handler, that said in upt and ut you are juding the team (and it is often the human member of the team that causes the problems! LOL) then you ask them to be quiet). I think if Ruger and Pixie read the posts they have written they are saying the same thing, just some are reading command to mean any word spoken to the dog.

High Voltage User is Offline

MH
Posts:131

12/27/2008 8:37 AM
Posted By Rugergundog on 12/24/2008 11:31 AM I agree that most are not aware of what is being judged. Training is not being judged. But to say you would not buy a pup who has been FF trained is foolish. True a steady dog is not needed; but to offset set backs in training it can be handly. I have seen dogs that are nearly finished master hunters by 12 months of age. If one has the time, the knowledge and the appropriate pup a handler would be a fool not to train. In fact i would be more likely to buy a pup if i knew the sire or dam was able to demonstrate that extent of training by a young age. I said I know people who have FF their pup to get it to swim for the NA test and I would not want a pup from that dog. Now for my reasoning....The dog wont swim, doesn't like water but is "forced" to and does it for the test, chances are it will have pups that do not care for the water either and I don't want that. We have a now 3 1/2 yr old, Copper, that does not care to swim, she may go in for a bird, if she wants to. She did not pass her NA test because of this and I knew there was a good chance she would not swim. We got her spade because there is no reason to chance passing the dislike for water on even though she is a machine in the field. We could have easily FF her and got her to swim for the NA test. I started to FF her and she will go in the water now for game if it's not to far. I had to have rotator cuff surgery and didn't get to finish the FF, so that will be done this spring. I have tested 2 other dogs in NA, both this year, one in the spring and one this fall. They both got 112. I have also attended 2 handlers clinics For one of them, I ran our Boomer dog as the UT dog.

pixie bee

MH
Posts:4448

12/28/2008 5:13 PM
Somer, picking up a fox and carrying a fox is a task many dogs do not like to do. If you say clicker training will overcome this then I say I would have to see it to believe it.I am a doting Thomas on this one. While the track my show use of nose there is so much more going on. I tell my dogs to search. I know way before I put a dog on a track what the quality of nose is and I use the track to tell me more about cooperation,obedience and desire. What a dog does during the track is so much more important then being able to focus and use its nose.Like is the dog willing to enter thick(er) cover,is the dog willing to go out of sight,is the dog going to blink the game,is the dog willing to retrieve, is the dog looking back for encouragment and/or direction,is the dog willing to come back to me with or w/o the game. As a handler and trainer to only use the track as a means to determine nose would be selling the catagory short and leave the handler/trainer not knowing more about the dog then when they started.I say as little as possible and I don't think a dog needs encouragment in the field portion,water portion the movement of the dummy should be enough to spark prey drive. Praise is good and should be expected by the dog. All just my opinion.

"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle

Somer

Houston, TX

MH
Posts:280

12/28/2008 5:31 PM
Posted By pixie bee on 12/28/2008 5:13 PM Somer, picking up a fox and carrying a fox is a task many dogs do not like to do. If you say clicker training will overcome this then I say I would have to see it to believe it.I am a doting Thomas on this one. I didn't say any particular style of training would cure a dogs dislike of picking up foxes. If you go back and read, I merely stated what to expect from it -- which you are obviously quite confused about. If any dog needs a big steak to complete a task then the trainer screwed up.

pixie bee

MH
Posts:4448

12/28/2008 6:01 PM
"If any dog needs a big steak to complete a task then the trainer screwed up..." Yes, I agree. Retrieve of a fox is 2 catagories in an advanced utility test. The reason for 2 catagories is b/c the dog is allowed to fail 1.The reason for this is b/c it is a tough retrieve for most dogs. My question is, is clicker training a method that can be relied upon to achieve picking up a piece of game that a dog has a dislike to? Training is not complete if it does not train a dog to do what the leader wants. Letting the dog decide is the wrong way to look upon training and a method that allows the dog to decide is faulty,IMHO.having a dog that works willingly is what we all strive for but I also strive to have a dog that does what it is told, all game that can be retrieved must be retrieved. And I am not there to make retrieves, it's just another reason I bring the dog along. I do like the method and I do encourage others to try it. I have not heard negative reports about clicker training. I am sure there are dogs that it has not worked on, like all methods, they need to be fitted to the individual. Maybe you do not have the answer for this.

"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle

pixie bee

MH
Posts:4448

12/29/2008 12:28 PM
I guess the best way to look at any venue is to make sure you are well aware of what that venue's test rules are and to have a good understanding of what is expected of handler and dog. There are quite a few ways poor handling can fail a test. Just like the dogs,handlers need experience as well. Good luck with all your testing and I look foward to hearing about it in the upcoming test seasons.

"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle

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