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Rugergundog
Saginaw Michigan USA
MH
Posts:395
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| 12/19/2008 6:02 AM |
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I had read something a bit different. What i was lead to understand was the breed had too much white in it along with loss of eye pigment so other liver dogs, I "think" some of the hounds were introduced into the blood. Not completely sure why white was not wanted other than some felt the GSP was looking like a EP.
In any event I think most agree that the black dogs are very pretty, just as functional as the other colors and the reason the black is not let in is purely political at this point. |
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Saginaw Michigan
Brittany- Ruger
GSP- Kilian |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/19/2008 6:41 AM |
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I can agree to that. That it is a political standpoint now not whether or not they are a GSP. I like the way you said that  |
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singltrak
Las Cruces, NM
MH
Posts:1149
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| 12/19/2008 7:01 AM |
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Each to his own opinion. I happen to disagree that it is purely political, as you put it.
That is why we are part of a democracy, though so that we are allowed to express our own opinions.
Phyllis and the Singltrak Furtribe |
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Look to the Past, Breed for the Future |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/19/2008 9:39 AM |
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I would like to know why too. From the books I have read and the research I have done I don't understand how a black is any different than a liver as far as the breed goes.
If I am not mistaken the only two registries in the world who do not allow black GSP's in the show ring are the AKC and CKC. That seems kind of odd to me that if the rest of the world allows them in their breed ring why won't the people in Canada and America? |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
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Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 12/19/2008 10:30 AM |
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The black color is severely faulted in Canada, but it is not a DQ. There has been at least one black and white GSP Canadian show champion. Bermuda also has the color black as a DQ and I honestly do not know if any other registries fault or DQ the color.
I compete happily in AKC, have owned two liver and white show champions and three others that were pointed in the breed ring. (One of those died suddenly and the other had to be spayed due to pyometra.) If I did not show and compete in AKC, my beautiful black and white "Sydney" would not be only one of 11 Obedience Trial Champions in the history of the breed, plus a multi annual award winner and NSS High In Trial. My young "Soleil" would not have run and placed in puppy stakes in field trials nor have her JH. (Looking forward to Derby.) How would that help anything? Nor would the solid black Wind River's Black Magic MH have been the GSPCA Hunting Test Dam of the Year.
Black and white GSPs do and should compete in AKC events if for no other reason than to show they are "just GSPs," as good, bad and indifferent as their liver bretheren. It is just a color, and not a color associated with lethel genes or helath issues either. Those that are bred should have all the appropriate health clearances and be conformationally correct, just like their liver and white counterparts.
Those people new to the dog world need to understand that in many breeds there are coat color exclusions. It is not exclusive to the GSP breed. Great Danes long excluded the "mantle" pattern. The black color is not allowed in GWPs in AKC. Poodles cannot be parti-colored in AKC. The list goes on...and the disagreements, sometimes polite, sometimes not so polite, also go on.
Sydney changed many people's minds about the color over the years when they met her. And Soleil also has many admirers. Some of the people who met Sydney for the first time 12 years ago had never seen a black and white GSP. I choose to compete a lot in AKC, show what my dogs can do and to respectfully disagree on the coat color issue. (Obviously!)
You will all be surprised to learn that I had no idea that the issue was up for a vote again. I personally am pretty tired of banging my head against a brick wall. I will continue to educate by proving what my dogs can do and I will happily answer questions, but my time will be devoted to training and competing with my wonderful dogs, especially my young Sheltie, Ozma, and Soleil.
Eleanor
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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gsp-fan
AZ
MH
Posts:353
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| 12/19/2008 10:35 AM |
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Moose
In the hound dog world you can not register a Bluetick with AKC but you can UKC. I think every group just decides what their bylaws are and if you don't like it be glad there are other groups you can compete with your dogs. I know that my EP had to be registered with AF before I could go register at AKC. The AKC was a pain to register her. |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 12/19/2008 10:45 AM |
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Good point. The wonderful thing about this country is that we have so many dog event options. Everyone who thinks UKC is so much more progressive...until January 2007, a black GSP could not even be registered with the UKC. I wanted to at least compete on obedience in UKC with Sydney (black and white), as I had really enjoyed it with my Sage (white and liver). Sydney was born in 1996. I contacted the UKC and was told she could only get a listing privilege (The UKC equiv. of an ILP/PAL) and for that she would have to be spayed. Well, since Sydney was pick bitch and her sire was the 1995 GSPCA National Specialty SHow BOB, I was not doing that, at least not immediately.
Sydney was spayed in 2000, after producing her son, but I refused to "list" her. I happily registered her in 2007. So, the much maligned AKC does at least allow all properly documented purebred dogs to be registered and it offers the limited registation option to breeders, for pet pups. Black GSPs can and do appear in many pedigrees.
And BTW, bad me, my first GSP, Summer, reached out from dog heaven and smacked me. She was a Champion, too. So that makes three. Not many, but I was just trying to make the point that I have and still will compete in the AKC show ring. But I show in UKC, too, and truly appreciate the recent opportunity to show off my young black and white girl.
Eleanor |
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/19/2008 11:19 AM |
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I never once said this was just a GSP thing. Honestly I have my hands full enough researching this breed to even think about researching another. If I owned another I would research it and push as hard for that breed to be recognized for what it should be!
I am very happy to promote my black GSP but at this time and point I will not be doing it on any AKC events. Just my personal prefrence. Just like if you get bad service from one company you more than likely will not go back. So until she can compete on equal playing ground with the livers in all aspects I won't be running her in any AKC events. Just my way of doing things.
She will be run in NAVDHA though to at least get her hunting titles. And UKC does do obedience and rally now along with agility so I have a place to do those and dock jumping as well and get my registry titles. If it were not for needing the AKC proof of her bloodlines to get her UKC registered (as her parents were not UKC registered) I would probably not even have registered her AKC until I needed to in the future if I breed her. Once again just my feelings.
I think the AKC is a vaild company and registry don't get me wrong but that doesn't mean I need to support their efforts any more than just registering my dogs who are eldigable. There are many ways to educate and I will choose to just not use the AKC venues as one of those ways. Once again just my personal prefrence.
Now this will change if the black is allowed in the show ring. Which I don't expect it to pass but I won't stop trying to have it done. |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 12/19/2008 11:56 AM |
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Like I said, there are many options and everyone should pursue those that interest them.
However, just to reiterate what you already know, but others may not fully understand: Whether to include or to exclude black GSPs from the show ring is not a decision that can be made by the AKC. As regards the breed standard, that is the domain of the breed parent club, in this case, the GSPCA. The AKC can review wording, approve format, etc., but it cannot change what the membership of a parent club decides. The UKC works differently and can unilaterally decide to change breed standards, at least where there is no parent club. So, it iis not the AKC that has excluded the color from the show ring.
However, as regards the performance sports, the AKC can and does set the rules, with input form advisory committees. The breed standard does not apply. The AKC even changed rules to allow breeds who must compete in the breed ring with hair over their eyes to use rubber bands to keep hair out of their eyes. Sounds silly, but years ago, I remember a person lamenting that she could not compete in both breed and obedience with her Old English because she would have to cut the bangs. And a dog who had to have a tail ampuated due to injury, could not comepte in obedience, unless the standard called for a docked tail.
My point is that things have changed for the better, incrementally, over time. And acceptance of the black color has improved. The GSPCA web site now acknowledges the color and photos of blacks appear on the site.
But there are not enough hours in the day to do everyting, so everyone should choose what they wish to do. I thoroughly enjoy UKC, but there are only a few breed shows per year in the area. UKC obedience trials are more numerous, but still limited. I also compete in ASCA obedience trials, plus I enjoy the occasional journey to Canada. I am unlikely to ever regsiter a litter with UKC until it offers a limited registration option, but, again, that is a personal choice.
See you at the Premier in June!
Eleanor in NJ, where it is snowing hard and this evening's Christmas party has ben cancelled. Sigh... |
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 12/19/2008 12:14 PM |
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ecampbell - Thanks for taking the time to explain and educate. You are a voice of knowledge and reason in a sometimes emotional world. I appreciate that voice.
My first love is obedience and all of my GSPs have at least a CD on them with the exception of my puppy of course. I am working on Halo's CDX and hope to take her all the way in obedience. I also show in conformation with Halo and plan to show Ringo in obedience, conformation, and hunt tests. As a novice owner handler I had wonderful experiences showing Halo to her UKC and International titles and learned allot along the way. However, I was also told that I would never finish her in the AKC if I didn't hire a handler and if I didn't wear a skirt, two things that are not going to happen. Well I am stubborn enough to want to prove all those nay sayers wrong, so I have handled Halo myself in my nice pants suits and we are one major and a few points away from that title. I guess this same stubborn streak is what keeps be coming back and questioning why not allow black in the standard. I am still waiting for that compelling answer, but until I get it I will continue to vote to allow for black every time there is a vote within the GSPCA.
So, thanks again for the education Eleanor and maybe someday I will get to see those wonderful dogs of yours competing, and Moose I hope you change your mind about competing your b/w dogs in AKC so that folks there can see that they are wonderful GSPs too. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/19/2008 1:53 PM |
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I want you all to know I don't disrespect any of you for doing events with the AKC. The best thing we all can do is get our dogs out there. I just have a soar spot with the AKC as a whole right now and so just personaly have decided not to show or do any events with them. Just a personal decision.
Just incase some of you feel I am trying to say that Eleanor is wrong I am not in any way at all. I really respect her and cherish the friendship I have of recenlty made with her through several emails a day in the last few months. She is a person I turn to for much advice and guidence.
Once again just a personal prefrence with AKC as to not showing or using them for my sporting choices. But I am very lucky that the UKC is formed in Michigan so we do have numerouse UKC events here.
Thanks to Eleanor for bringing up the point that it is the parent club who has to allow for the black to be in the show ring and it is out of the hands of the AKC. I should have mentioned this in the begining but failed to do so! |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 12/19/2008 3:00 PM |
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escampbell wrote"
Sydney changed many people's minds about the color over the years when they met her.
What was the frame of mind of those about the black color that she "changed" their minds?
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 12/19/2008 4:38 PM |
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Early on in Sydney's "career," she was often the first black pigmented GSP many people had ever seen. People had heard about the color, perhaps seen the odd photo, but often had never met one in person, so to speak. Let's remember that 11-12 years ago, the world wide web was still in its relative infancy compared to today.
People told me that when they met her, they went from not liking or accepting the color to liking it. In some cases, they said she convinced them to vote in favor of allowing the color in the breed ring. Or they said they could not picture what a black and white GSP looked like until they met her. Although I bought my first GSP in 1982, I personally never saw a black and white until I met Sydney's dam at the Wisonsin National Specialty in 1993. I bought Sydney in 1996 because I liked her sire (liver and white) and dam. It so happened that all the bitches in the litter were black and white. Since I spend most of my time competing in obedience, her color was irrelevent to me, as long as she was an otherwise good quality dog.
Of course she did not change other people's minds. But, she has often been the only black pigmented GSP competing at the GSPCA National Specialty. Happily, in recent years there have been others.
She was also used in judges seminars to clarify for judges the difference between dark liver and black. (There is no comparison if you stand her next to even a dark liver dog.) Some judges were questioning whether or not legitimate liver dogs had black in them.
Eleanor
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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dnauer
Colorado Springs, CO
MH
Posts:175
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| 12/19/2008 5:12 PM |
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Another thing Eleanor has accomplished with Sidney is winning High In Trial at the GSPCA National Specialty Show obedience competition -- a photo of the NSS Breed winner, BOS winner, and HIT winner is placed on the COVER of the Shorthair Journal each year, so Eleanor's B/W Shorthair has been featured on the cover of the GSPCA Journal simply by winning that coveted honor. Exposure is one key to acceptance and Eleanor has been a champion herself in doing this over the years. And for those in this thread that do not know Eleanor's accomplishments, Sidney is one of only 11 GSPs to ever earn the AKC OTCH obedience champion title.
I remember the 1999 GSPCA National Specialty show where the quesiton of Black in the standard came up for a vote -- everyone brought their Black GSPs to that national and we were exposed to many GSPs with black in their coats. It was a great experience.
Someone mentioned not being able to register the Bluetick Coonhound with the AKC - -that isn't quite true -- the BT Coonhound is not a "recognized breed" by AKC, but AKC offers a "Foundation Stock Service" for breeds that want to use the studbook services of AKC without the recognition as a breed per se. Also, many of the FSS breeds can compete in Agility, Obedience, Rally, and Tracking -- as an AKC Agility Judge I see many of these unusual breeds compete in AKC Agility events across the country --
Also, the Bluetick Coonhound is now in the AKC Miscellaneous class (and remains in the FSS service until this breed is formally recognized), so you can even see them compete at AKC Dog Shows in the "Miscellaneous Class" -- which does not go on to compete in Group or BIS competition.
Here is AKC's version of the Bluetick Coonhound's Breed Standard as submitted by the American Bluetick Coonhound Association: http://www.akc.org/breeds/bluetick_coonhound/
And here is a link explaining the FSS Breed program and the breeds under the FSS program within AKC:
http://www.akc.org/breeds/fss_breeds.cfm
You'll find several sporting breeds in the list of FSS breeds and may on rare occassions see them compete in AKC Agility in particular.
Dave
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Dave in Colorado
Voyager GSPs
"If there are no dogs in heaven, when I die, I want to go where they went" -- Will Rogers |
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gsp-fan
AZ
MH
Posts:353
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| 12/19/2008 5:58 PM |
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| Dave - Thanks for the info on the Bluetick. I will have to remember that when I get another Bluetick. Is this something new/recent in the last few years? |
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dnauer
Colorado Springs, CO
MH
Posts:175
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| 12/19/2008 6:39 PM |
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The ability for FSS to compete in obedience, agility, etc is only a few years old. For Coonhound "performance" events the following FSS breeds can compete in AKC Coonhound events:
Coonhound Events
- American English Coonhound
- Bluetick Coonhound
- Redbone Coonhound
- Treeing Walker Coonhound
Since this is a GSP site, for those wondering what FSS breeds can compete in AKC Hunt Tests, they are:
Hunting Tests
- Boykin Spaniel
- Irish Red and White Setter
- Portuguese Pointer
- Wirehaired Vizsla - effective 1/1/09
Of course the Boykin Spaniel competes in AKC Spaniel Hunt Tests.
Dave |
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Dave in Colorado
Voyager GSPs
"If there are no dogs in heaven, when I die, I want to go where they went" -- Will Rogers |
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Ace1cappuccino
Carp Lake, Michigan
MH
Posts:1618
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| 12/20/2008 9:41 AM |
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I prefer the liver/ liver roan with patches. Somehow I ended up with only one and 4 white and liver. As long as they look good, find birds, and are comical, athletic, energetic, loving, wiggle their butts, and love me; that's what I like. My only intact dog is Hunter, the others were to the small side of the standard but I would be more worried about body size, teeth, head, ears, etc ..than color. Unless of course one was yellow or green!! Lmao! I don't show mine so my opinion only goes as far as that. They are made for hunting so whether they are the prettiest or ugliest dog doesn't matter to me. I have friends with a black solois and another with a black roan. They hunt good and act like gsps. The solid black is very pretty when the sun hits. I prefer the liver but that's just me. I grew up with the liver color and until I moved to Michigan I had never even seen the white ones so I thought they were wierd looking too!
Are there other things with the black ones that are considered problems or is it just the color? Are there other genetic issues? My friends dogs act like mine, look like mine (except color), and hunt like mine. Just curious. |
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Cornell's GSP'S- Mocha cappuccino, Lili Belle Lotte, Sir Leopold Vom Hunter 1, Lil Miss Lotte Doddi, Ace Hunter Twisted Mister(GSP'S)  
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/20/2008 10:56 AM |
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| There are no other health issues that are any different than the livers. I have grown more fond of the dark livers and roans along with black and black roans as well! |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2721
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| 12/20/2008 2:48 PM |
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Just my own personal opinion and experience, the liver ticking in the GSP breed sets it apart from other breeds Have you ever come across a mix breed dog in the dog park or on a walk who had a different head shape but had liver ticking on it's body?? The owner tells you she thinks her dog is mixed with GSP while viewing your liver ticked GSP. I have had that experience while walking with Rocky. |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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