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TessaGAUser is Offline
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12/03/2008 2:15 PM  

Are there different "down" commands for the GSP?

From what I read on the German DK forum, "down" (English command) means the dog needs to drop,with the head down as well, not head up looking around. Apparently, the German "platz", in Germany is reserved for formal obedience and not used with hunting dogs? And it sounds like "down" is a very serious command as it is used to drop the dog to the ground when needed, in the field. Again, dog is expected to drop body and head to the ground. It is different from the command given for "ablegen" e.g. telling the dog to lie in one place until released ("platz";).

I can see that can come in handy. What does "down" mean to your dogs? Do you teach them different ones? And how?

 


To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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mitUser is Offline
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12/03/2008 2:45 PM  
We use two down commands. 'Down' used as the serious command as you described & 'lie down' as in we want you to lie down but your head doesn't need to be down.
carlower1User is Offline
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12/03/2008 3:49 PM  
for us.. down means that you are laying down on your stomach, head position doesnt matter. OFF means get off whatever you jumped up on.

Carrie
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12/03/2008 4:51 PM  
This question is an obedience lovers dream...

I also use "off" to tell my dogs to stop jumping up or to get off the furniture. "Down" is for formal or emergency fast drops to the ground. I use it in everyday life and for the drop-on-recall in the obedience ring. The dog is to stay crouched, hips up, ready to jump to his/her feet. I use "curl" when my dog is at my side and/or I want them to lie down in a relaxed down, such as for a long down in obedience or if they are just to lie down and be "off duty."

When I say "curl" I expect one hip to flip to the side. If one hip does not, I repeat the word and my dogs learn to move a hip to assume the proper position. I do not care where the head is on a curl. On down, I expect the dog to be alert and waiting for my next command.

I don't think the words matter, but keep your expectations for each command clear.

Eleanor

Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil
Texas BelleUser is Offline
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12/03/2008 4:59 PM  

For me down is down.  I teach a moving down, a down on recall, a down stay, etc., but they are all down.  The only time I want their head down is when they are in a down stay and only because they are less likely to get up when their head is down.  I have never taught a special command for that.  They are smart enough to know that a down stay they might as well get comfortable because they will be there for a while.  I prefer my dogs to fold when they go down, meaning head and front go down first and then back, but some of my dogs just don't like to do it that way and there is really no harm in the sit then down unless you do agility.  Of course the down on recall is easier and looks better if they fold down.


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo) and the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo)

Yellow Rose GSPs

hit-fri DSC_0203 DSC_0006DSC_0044

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." --Plato

"..It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.." --Samuel Adams
bravepointUser is Offline
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12/03/2008 5:35 PM  
To my dogs, down means lie down with the elbows touching the floor and the back legs crouched ready to get up quickly if needed. I teach a fold back down which is needed in agility for a fast down on the table. It's also good for a drop on recall or moving down. Off means get off the counter or furniture or person.

Gail

Gail, Moka, Avery, Terra & Rayne
Bravepoint GSPs
everbellUser is Offline
Kanata, ON
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12/03/2008 5:44 PM  
ditto to Gail's meanings of "down" and "off". We use "settle" when we want the hips to the side (ie. relaxed ...)

Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures
Texas BelleUser is Offline
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12/03/2008 6:01 PM  

I use off in the same way as the others.  My dogs have all just picked up the relaxed obedience down stay.  Meaning when I down them at my side for the long down I start out telling them to get comfy and gently flip them over on their side so they aren't sitting like a sphinx.  They eventually do that automatically and I don't have to continue the get comfy command.  I just say down and they know by my position which down we are doing. They also automatically put their head down on their paws, so I have never really had to teach that in the obedience down stay.  On the drop on recall or moving recall my two youngsters automatically did the fold, so I didn't have to teach it.  Belle was the one that would not do the fold and I think it was because she hurt her front shoulder and had to have surgery when she was about 9 months old.  Off means get off of whatever.  Four on the floor is my no jumping command.  I generally only have to use that when they are younger.  Later they learn not to jump unless invited.  My jump up and put your paws on my shoulders is Hugs and Kisses. 


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo) and the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo)

Yellow Rose GSPs

hit-fri DSC_0203 DSC_0006DSC_0044

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." --Plato

"..It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.." --Samuel Adams
pixie beeUser is Offline

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12/03/2008 6:27 PM  
I teach the down the same way I use whoa.Down to my dogs is chin on the floor between paws and relaxed.

Be the type of woman that when you wake up each morning and put your feet on the floor the Devil says -
"Oh Crap, She's Up!"

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2229
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2230

TessaGAUser is Offline
Georgia
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12/03/2008 7:36 PM  
Okay, so how do you go about teaching the formal down, and the down with the head on the ground?

My words have always been "off" for off, "platz" for formal down (head up), "place" to go to retreat to the dog den (I have one), and "settle" to calm down and get comfy.

I can see the advantages of both the alert down with the head up and the down with the head on the ground. Should I add a "down" command for a down with the head on the ground? If so, which one do I teach first? I guess the one with the head up? She's 5 months old and as expected is having a hard time with any down LOL...working on it...one second at a time...

To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie beeUser is Offline

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12/04/2008 5:44 AM  
It's not difficult. I find it easier to teach down then whoa.
5 months is a good age to start. I start around 4 months.
I sit the dog,stand next to him and as I push out the front legs I push dond on their shoulders/withers and say down. In the first few sessions I do not worry about feet or head placement. I just want the puppy to understand what the word down means. After about 4-5 sessions,when I see the puppy is begining to put 2&2 together I correct feet, make sure the head is facing foward,make sure the hips are square(if that's the coreect term), and they are not allowed to move anything but their eyes. Time is increased as the pup gets the hang of it. When I can rely on the puppy to stay in this position for about 20 seconds I then add a hand signal after I have put them in the down. I put the dog in the down for quite a while,about a month or 2. I could use the leash under foot method but that seems harsh to me for a young dog. Haiko was not going down fast enough when he was about 1 year old so I then used that method. I don't start to do a moving down or a down at a distance until the dog will down next to me and I can move out of sight for about 2 minutes. We practice the down in the house and outside. With cats and squirrels and without. This is a serious command for me and I want complete compliance. The dog will eventually be downed at the water and in the forest and be shot over.

Be the type of woman that when you wake up each morning and put your feet on the floor the Devil says -
"Oh Crap, She's Up!"

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2229
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2230

TessaGAUser is Offline
Georgia
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12/04/2008 7:06 AM  
Ah, the whoa...my favorite command. She is sooo good at it...just stands there forever, tail wagging but all else frozen. I can even throw the ball, she won't move until I say "go". I swear she came with it built-in.

My previous dog's best command was the "down" - rock solid very early on. But it is Tessa's worst.

I started her a few weeks ago using treats to guide her down. Now she downs on command, then we wait about 10-20 second, then she gets her treat, then she is released. I can walk around her without her getting up. That's where we're at. 20 seconds is the most I was able to get out of her so far. As I said...one second at a time...incremental.

When you say you down your dog for one month or two, I assume it's one minute or two :)


To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie beeUser is Offline

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12/04/2008 7:13 AM  
No. I keep them there until they are about 2 years old.LOL.

Yes, a few minutes but what I really meant is that I put them,physically, in the down.I do not rely on them to do it themselves until I see they fully understand and can comply quickly. I do not want them to think about it. It want it to be reflex.

Yeah, that sentence was pretty funny the way it was phrased.

Be the type of woman that when you wake up each morning and put your feet on the floor the Devil says -
"Oh Crap, She's Up!"

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2229
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2230

EllegirlUser is Offline

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12/04/2008 7:20 AM  

When you treat her for the down do not release her right away.  Wait a few seconds and praise her for a good down stay, then release. 

everbellUser is Offline
Kanata, ON
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12/04/2008 8:29 AM  
Bo's worse command is stay. I can get him in a good down, settle, but as soon as I turn my back he's up. We're still working on it tho ...

Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures
TessaGAUser is Offline
Georgia
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Posts:2086


12/04/2008 8:37 AM  
Oh, I see, thanks for clarifying, Francine.

To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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bravepointUser is Offline
Cumberland, ON Canada
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12/04/2008 12:41 PM  
Rayne was having a hard time staying down as well. I trained the down by luring her. She would always spring up right after her treat. What I worked on was lenghtening the time between treats and we can now stay for 2 minutes. I release her after that.

Gail

Gail, Moka, Avery, Terra & Rayne
Bravepoint GSPs
everbellUser is Offline
Kanata, ON
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MH
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12/04/2008 12:55 PM  
That's a good tip Gail ... I'll keep working on it. Theoretically, how long should a dog be able to maintain a stay?

Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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12/04/2008 12:56 PM  

I trained Ringo by luring as well, but quickly faded the treat lure.  Then we worked on lengthening the amount of time he was down.  At first I stayed very close so I could reach out and correct if he tried to get up (I also tried to anticipate him based on his body language, like dropping his head).  We started with just a few seconds and worked up from there.  I have now progressed to moving about 12 feet from him and we are up to about 2 minutes at that distance.  Often if they are popping up at this age it is an insecurity issue.  Try moving back closer to the dog. and rebuild.  Also, he doesn't get  a treat until the exercise is over and I have said my release word.  Then he may get up and he gets a treat.  This proofs for when you are in the obedience ring and you move back to the dog and the judge says exercise over.  You want to be able to reach and connect the leash and then wait to find out if you qualified before the dog jumps up.  So, my dogs have to wait for the release.  I am now at the point with Halo and Belle that if I say stay and start walking away and get to the end of the leash and tug, they do not budge.  They are waiting for the release word or the word heel.


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo) and the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo)

Yellow Rose GSPs

hit-fri DSC_0203 DSC_0006DSC_0044

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." --Plato

"..It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.." --Samuel Adams
bravepointUser is Offline
Cumberland, ON Canada
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12/04/2008 1:14 PM  
Joce,

A long time! Start with staying close and increasing the time before you add distance to the stay. Treat every 15 secs. initially and gradually stretch out the time between rewards.

Gail

Gail, Moka, Avery, Terra & Rayne
Bravepoint GSPs
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