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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 12/05/2008 3:18 PM |
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I like my dogs to find all the birds in the field and I don't care how fast they do it,altho, they do hunt at a gallop.
Any pointing breed worth their salt will retrieve a seen,shot bird or duck as well as any retriever.That's the easy part. I don't even consider this aspect a part of hunting. It's all part of the make up of the dog,drive. It is not a search, it is a seen retrieve, very different.It requires marking. If you read my above post you will understand the difference in the testing aspect of the search then the actual hunting.
In the German system there is a dead duck search where the dog must find the duck and retrieve it.The dogs I have seen perform have found the duck quickly. Oh and there is no shot fired.The dog goes on a single command.Unlike in NAVHDA where the duck is seen,marked and shots are fired.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/05/2008 6:56 PM |
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I guess I don't see the practicality of having a dog retrieve a duck that they havn't seen shot?
I would understand it if it were a deer,fox,rabit other type of animal that the dog may not have been there when it was killed and they then helped track it down but why on earth would someone not want their dog to mark the duck that was shot?
Just because a duck was shot and the dog marks where it fell when you go true duck hunting there are many a cat tail and other rubage around that if the bird were a cripple the bird could get away. Plus many a time in duck hunting there are several birds shot at one time. So just cause the dog marks it doesn't mean that is where the bird still is when the retrive is done.
To me it would make more practical sense to have the bird thrown out (a shot fired) and the bird lands and is able to still swim wherever it wants/run where ever it wants and make the dog wait say a minute to two minutes to retrieve. This would make more practical sense in evaluating how well the dog really would do in the real hunting world. Marking is part of the real hunting world like it or not.
No offence pixie but I wouldn't hold much value to that as it doesn't show me the dogs true ability in a real hunting situation. It may show their determination and endurence but it is so far from the real thing I feel it shouldn't be even in the test when done that way.
But alas we all agree to disagree and we don't hate eachother for it!  |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 12/07/2008 6:54 PM |
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When you begin to understand the purpose of the duck search and the versatile dog world you will understand why what you say doesn't test a dog in the areas that help prove a versatile dog.
I will try my best to explain.
The test is not testing the dogs ability to find a duck. It is testing how a dog searches for a duck. The dog must trust the handler 100%. The dog saw no duck and heard no shot. The handler says go and find a duck. The dog must search until it finds something or the handler calls the dog off. A dog that comes back to the handler and must be resent any amount of times is not performing a proper search. A dog that forgets why it's out there is not performing a proper search. After all, in a field search, do you need to tell your dog more then once to "hunt them up"? A duck search is like a field search, only in water. A duck search is testing independence,desrie,obedience,cooperation - to see if the dog has the drive to stay out there for any amount of time to continue to search for game.
I believe you do not train a duck search , you breed for it. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/07/2008 9:19 PM |
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This is one area that I will agree to disagree on a bit but at lass that is why this is such a great place to talk about subjects and still have respect for eachother!
Reason being is that upland hunting and waterfowl are two TOTALY different kinds of hunting. Once again to me there is no practicality on the search as it wouldn't happen that way in the real world of hunting waterfowl. JMO.
This too is probably why I like the NAVHDA way of trialing as well.
I understand it testing the independence,desire,obedience and cooperation but just don't see the real life senario in this one. |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 12/08/2008 5:40 AM |
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NAVHDA is the same way. There is a water portion where the duck is put out w/o the handler or dog seeing and a shot is fired. Aside from the shot, the catagory is the same as the German test.
What you are describing is a great way to test a lab. And labs are essentailly tested in that way. We are talking VDogs.
The system is not testing a dog to hunt waterfowl, it is testing how a dog searches for and possibly recovers unseen game. This is why the recovery of the game is not neccessary.As long as you see it as waterfowling you can not understand the difference.The search in the water should be the same as the search on land. In water you will see a difference in some dogs then on land. This is why water search is an important aspect of a dog, for me.
And FWIW, there is no testing system in the world that is like real hunting. Just can't be done. The dogs know it is a set up,(the smart ones do anyway.)
Before you agree to disagree ask some of the NAVHDA people on here like Trey or R.R. Rouse to explain the water search.
It really is the best part of a test.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 12/08/2008 5:46 AM |
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For some reason the quick reply isn't working for me, I typed a long post here the other day, but I won't go back into that, but this is my second time for this one.
The purpose of the duck search is to test desire (drive if you will), technically on the card we are juding nose, desire, cooperation and obedience (dog must stay until sent, and retrieve a shot or caught duck) but the rest is desire. The dog must expand his search, not staying in one area he has already covered, use the wind to his advantage, trust you that there is a duck, a lot of indepence to work by himself, out of sight for a very long time.
Yes, it does happen this way while waterfowl hunting, the dog misses a mark on a long flying cripple that you can't shoot again (too far away), you give the dog a direction and he has to work it out on his own.
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/08/2008 6:28 AM |
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The part I like better about NAVHDA is the shot being fired.
It does happen that the dog is out of site searching for cripples in Waterfowl but the dog is not sent after a bird that no one shot at is the point I am trying to make and had already posted so in an earlier thread.
I think we should all make our own testing system where judges travel to where you are hunting! This way they see what the dog actualy does on any given day when hunting in real life. |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 12/08/2008 6:55 AM |
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Let's say you are puddle jumping with your dog. You leave Fido in the car to go and check out the water. You see a duck and shoot it. Impossible for you to retrieve, you need your dog. You go back to the car and get Fido. Fido would have to go and search for an unseen duck w/o a shot. Yes, you could fire again, but why should you have to?
Or, you are out with Fido and you meet a few duck hunter finished for the day's hunt. They show you their prize and tell you there was one the dog didn't find. You take Fido over to the water and send him for a search. Do you need to fire a shot?
The dog either has the drive or does not. Nothing worse then sending the dog and he has no idea what you are talking about. That lost look. I saw a guy test in the German system and the dog failed the water b/c he would not go in. The dog had a 4 in UT water. The owner did not train w/o the shot and the dog just didn't know what to do.The owner assumed it would not make a difference. Well, it does. The shot is the cue.
If your dog finds the duck to soon in NAVHDA your dog will be resent w/o a shot. If your dog needs that shot to go in then you are in trouble. When a hunter enters a field does he/she fire a shot? No, why? Just not needed. Why is it needed for water?
Just my take on things. I train w/o cues.They only have the possibilty of getting your dog in trouble on test day or when it really matters, when you hunt. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 12/08/2008 7:09 AM |
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"It does happen that the dog is out of site searching for cripples in Waterfowl but the dog is not sent after a bird that no one shot at is the point I am trying to make and had already posted so in an earlier thread."
Moose we are sometimes in blinds with 4-10 people, the dogs are sent many times without shots being fired (IE bunch of ducks down with shooting, dog is sent comes back with birds, then many resend without shots) Ever walked up on a pond that someone else has hunted and seen cripples on the far side? We jump shoot lots of times, crawl in and shoot birds, then get the dogs (if we have young dogs that won't heel yet, they stay in the truck until the shooting is over).
'I think we should all make our own testing system where judges travel to where you are hunting! This way they see what the dog actualy does on any given day when hunting in real life. "
I know you are kidding, but most area's of the country the season's don't run together, and most area's dont' have enough birds. As an aside, I had some friends from out of state hunting last week. In two days time we shot pheasant, quail and ducks, and one of my dogs took a coon also. In this group were 3 vc's, 6 ut prize one dogs, and a ut II dog (and a few young dogs just coming up) so apparently the test dogs can also do the work. |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/08/2008 8:59 AM |
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I agree the test dogs can do the work. And yeah I was sort of joking about making a test that the judges go with you when you really hunt but truthfully that would be the only way to really see if the dog is truly versatile as like Pixie said the dog knows when it is a test versus real thing.
I guess maybe I havn't done enough waterfowl as I havn't ever gone "puddle jumping" with out my dog. If the dog doesn't heal they are on leash. Just my way of doing things I guess.
I guess maybe I need to explain what I mean by shot fired... In your situation where there are many shots being done and ducks dropping the dog knows there are ducks out there. They will trust you after they retrieve one duck if you tell them to get another. But still there were shots fired at some point in time within the last 10 minutes. We have had this situation as well in waterfowl hunting but I still consider it to be that there was a shot fired.
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 12/08/2008 11:13 AM |
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Maybe I am wrong but I think that by comparing this catagory to duck hunting is the wrong thing to do.
Duck hunting is about marked retrieves. I don't expect a pointing breed to "clean up" like a lab. I don't want my VDog tested like a lab. Labs are not free thinkers or independant like VDogs. They are handled.
In the test handling is not permitted and if done will lower the score.
I really think you are missing the purpose of the test and in turn not understanding what traits are sought after in a versatile dog. I pride myself in the fact that my dog will search,non-stop, for almost 2 hours for a duck that isn't there. Of course sometimes I add the duck at the end and sometimes I end it with no duck. What is important is that the handler end the task and not the dog.
Like I said, maybe I'm wrong.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/08/2008 1:05 PM |
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I don't see a true right or wrong answer here. Just like a standard is interpreted so is ones view of what versatile is. I see where you are coming from. as wel. I do feel I understand what versatile it. I think it also expands to much more than hunting as well. IMO.
Gotta love that each person has their own understanding of what something means. I do admire the dogs who do well in the current testing situations. And our new girl will be NAVHDA tested as I feel it is the best venue out there right now for us. |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 12/09/2008 12:14 PM |
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To highjack the thread just a little more I'd like to add 2 of my favorite pictures of Haiko and his water search during his AZP - German older dog breed test.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7843
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 12/10/2008 5:13 AM |
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He was the first dog in the water and it was cold.He went out as far as you see in the picture which was about 200 yards. He had picked up the duck's scent by then and headed back toward the reeds you see in the picture. The duck made a U-turn. I didn't know it and I was soooo nervous. I thought for sure we failed. I couldn't imagine what he was doing or why. It did not take long. He searched the reeds and flushed the duck into the open water and it was shot for him. Always trust your dog!
I thought it was a good search b/c he did pick up the scent and followed it right to where the duck was. The test's purpose is to show the dog working for the hunter. The hunter either sends the dog to retrieve shot/wounded game or to flush game that may or may not be there. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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