mit
Harleysville, PA
MH
Posts:592
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| 11/25/2008 8:24 AM |
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Beth,
wow, what an ordeal you have been through. Tough choices are ahead of you. I don't think you can overcome your emotional outpouring unless you give Moose another shot. If you think you can give Moose another chance just know what your up against, who you have to protect & go for it. If you give him another try and it doesn't work at least in your heart you know you did everything you coud. You're a strong person & I know you'll do what you have to do. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
Marlys |
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2662
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| 11/25/2008 8:38 AM |
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| Oh Beth, don't beat your emotions up!! Please, you are going to be just fine along with Moose's new home adjustment. To further renew your confidence about good adjustment for Moose I will share a Snciker story. We boarded Snickers for 2 weeks while we gone on vacation. For some reason Snickers escaped from the boarders. They eventually after a long search found Snickers waiting for us on our front porch a few miles away !!! If Moose had not adjusted somewhat to his new home, you would have found him sitting on your front porch. Jayden is a precious sweetheart!!!! |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1713
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| 11/25/2008 8:49 AM |
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I highly doubt I would have found Moose on my front porch in that short of a time frame. We live 100 miles away! :0)
I just know Moose. I know that he wouldn't have gone to anyone but me, my husband or Jim if he were running around loose outside and scared. When I get a dog it is a life decision I feel. If there were any way to fix things I would want to try it before giving up on them.
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP CH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor- CH BNJ Rumor Has It- NA II
www.dasuquin.com |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:6748
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2662
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| 11/25/2008 9:30 AM |
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Oh Beth, It makes me breathe a sigh of relief that Moose is 100 miles away instead of 5 or 6 miles away I second what Bev says about consulting a Behaviorist who can be objective with your situation. |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2662
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| 11/25/2008 9:38 AM |
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Here is a link to Rocky's trainer behaviorist
http://www.pawsitivedirections.com/index.html
Jody does do telephone consultations if you cannot find a good behaviorist around your area Rocky and I did some private lessons with her to fine tune us to pass the CGC and TDI tests. Also we took an intermediate manners class with her and was very happy.  |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1713
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| 11/25/2008 10:00 AM |
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| Than you marie! I will look at her info! I do have two recomendations for behaviorlists in the area. Well within a few hours at least. I will keep you all posted. |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP CH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor- CH BNJ Rumor Has It- NA II
www.dasuquin.com |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1713
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| 11/26/2008 6:12 AM |
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We have found a wonderful trainer near our home with very high recomendations. We are going to see what we can do. At least if we try that and it still doesn't get better then I will feel like I have tried all I can and won't have the "what ifs" in my head.
Our friend said if it doesn't work he will happily take Moose back in at his home. So we will see what happens. I will keep you all posted. Our next purchase though for the time being will be a muzzle so that we don't have as much worry. Plus we can crate and rotate a bit too as we work through the issues.
I have always had a very strong bond with my dogs in the past but I never did dog sports and such with them. It is amazing how much stronger your bond becomes when you become involved with dog sports and the time and training it takes for those! |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP CH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor- CH BNJ Rumor Has It- NA II
www.dasuquin.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:3916
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| 11/26/2008 7:16 AM |
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I'm sorry. Be angry with me if you like,never reply to another one of my posts, but I think you are making a big mistake. A mistake in thinking Moose can be changed. You are bringing him back in the house and putting a muzzle on him? How big is Moose and how big is your son? And how much force is in Moose when he is in motion? You are thinking of yourself and not your child or Moose. This entire post is about how YOU feel. Personally, I don't care how YOU feel. I care about the consequences your feelings will bring.
Like I said, I apologize for this post that is more of a slap in the face then a shoulder to cry on. I am a realist and a child must always come before all.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1713
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| 11/26/2008 7:35 AM |
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| I respect you for your opinion and am not mad at you in the least. You have the right to feel how you do and I have the right to feel as I do. I am not going to defend my decision at all regarding this as it is my decision and my family involved. |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP CH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor- CH BNJ Rumor Has It- NA II
www.dasuquin.com |
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2662
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| 11/26/2008 7:55 AM |
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| Beth, talk to the trainer, first before bringing Moose back to see what the trainer will tell you objectively. There are GSPs who live in outside heated in the winter time kennels and are not house dogs who do just fine. So in that living case Jayden would not be living in the house with a muzzel Moose. Lots of people have outside kennel dogs and'' the well mannered house dog." Good thing also to puchase a muzzel and have it on hand incase you will ever need it. I have always had a muzzel in our house as a worry wort and protection at the Vet, I place a muzzel on all my dogs no matter how gentle cause all my dogs have a full set of teeth. If the dog feels threatened by needles, themometer ect. they may take a snip at the Vet with no warning. Snickers never bite a flea but I always made her wear a muzzel during the Vets exam shots ect... I like Pixie bee would never trust Moose alone around Jayden. I don't think you would ever feel comfortable either having the 2 together. Best Wishes and you are deep in my prayers. |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1713
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| 11/26/2008 8:20 AM |
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This decision has been made after several hours of conversation with the trainer yesteday. It was not a hasty decision. Moose will NEVER be left alone with Jayden. If Jayden is out playing and we can't keep them seperated Moose will be either outside in the yard or in his kennel. This trainer we have been refered to is a good contact through our dog sports as well. I didn't know they did training professionaly or that they specalized in behavior issues.
My son will not be in harms way by doing this. Just because he is coming home doesn't mean he will come home with the same set of 'rules' he had when he left. My husband is 100% behind this decision as well. So it isn't a ME decision it was an US decision and a decision that was made with the trainer. We have set our game plan for having him come back and are on the same page as to how this will work as we work through our training. I am determined that in a month or so I will be writing to let you know how well it is going! I am that confident in the trainer, my dog and us as his owners. |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP CH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor- CH BNJ Rumor Has It- NA II
www.dasuquin.com |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:6748
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| 11/26/2008 9:22 AM |
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Moose - Good luck! I am praying this works out the way you and your family want it too. I don't remember this, but my mom and dad have told me the stories. We had a dog when I was about Jayden's age. He wasn't as big as a GSP, but he still had a good set of teeth. He tried to bite me a few times over his stuff. My mom and dad worked with the dog and worked with me (no one went to a trainer in those days). They also never left me alone with the dog. To make a long story short, it is because of that dog that I became a dog lover. I learned to respect dogs and had a better understanding of living with a dog. The dog learned to respect me too. We became best friends after I was a little older and I could start training the dog (actually my mom and dad did the training, but they let me take over to practice). I understand what Pixie is saying, but I also understand your position. I respect both, but I am glad you talked to a trainer. You, your husband and that trainer have the information needed to make the decision. The rest of us are just sympathetic bystanders hoping that this works out the way you want it too. I will be looking forward to hearing about your progress. Keep us posted.
Also, if you can I would be very interested in the things you work on to correct the problem and any thoughts your trainer may have as to the dynamics and what is causing the issue. This is just the dog trainer in me being curious. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
     
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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unowhoandwhy
Middleofnowhere, NH
MH
Posts:1796
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| 11/26/2008 9:28 AM |
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| Best of luck to you & your family, I hope things work out for all of you! |
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Daniel Yankee Flyer - 8/2002
Lady Layla - 1/2006 |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:3916
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| 11/26/2008 9:36 AM |
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Thank you for understanding my view point. It's the thought of anything happening to any of my kids b/c of a decision I made out of sympathy, guilt or insecurity would just kill me.
While I do not agree with your family's decision I do wish you all the best of luck and hope things do turn out the way you envision them. It is an attainable situation. With the correct supervision and behavior modification techniques you may be able to create an environment where there is peace of mind.
Best of luck and please keep us up to date.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1713
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| 11/26/2008 10:01 AM |
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Thank you guys.
Francine thank you for not taking offense either. I have learned very quickly on message boards to not get offended by someone elses point of view. So I thank you for that mutual respect. I do look up to many of you as mentors. So I will be posting our progress and what we are working on with our dogs as a whole not just moose.
The trainer said the things we will work on are things that we can use on all the dogs to make our "pack" mesh better as well.
She also said with our dogs being canine athletes what we will start with is calming activities so that when any of the dogs feel like they are not in a place that they want to be they can then have the ability to reason (as much as dogs can) and they will have learned how to calmly deal with it. Then we will move on to more of interaction with our dogs with eachother as far as games go and then also playing with jayden. So it is going to be a process. We are going to start logging behaviors of all the dogs and such as well and figuring out our pack dinamics.
I feel we are in good hands and that we could have good outcomes in the long run. What is the funniest thing is when Moose gowls he will walk away from Jayden and then 2 seconds later he turns around and gives him a kiss..... what a wierdo! |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP CH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor- CH BNJ Rumor Has It- NA II
www.dasuquin.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:3916
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| 11/26/2008 10:51 AM |
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I have read and re-read your last post.
Several things come to my mind.
1) dogs are sentient beings. Altho, I do not believe them to have powers of reasoning, at all. They can be intelligent and have problem solving mechanisms but to imply that a dog can reason in any way is beyond what I believe a dog is capable of. IMO.
2) To "calmly deal with it" would depend on the dog's psyche. You can not create a mental state of being that is not already present within a dog. Temperament is inbred and altho can be managed it can not be changed. Ask the trainer if she is talking about managing Moose or changing Moose. There is a hugh difference, one which could be a long,energy consuming ordeal.
3) a dog that crosses the line to bite a human is dangerous. A percieved threat by a dog is not an justifiable explaination for biting.
4) you said that he will growl, walk away then kiss. The dog is not kissing Jayden. The word kiss implies human emotions. This could be the downfall to the entire behavior modification program. As he is "kissing" Jayden he could just as easily bite him or give a nip.
Dogs lick (kiss) for different reason and this needs to be discussed with your trainer.
When he licks Jayden, was there a look or reprimand from someone?
I would ask the trainer how she has learned behavior modification and what her worst cases were and if you could talk with those clients. Ask her who her mentors are and which behavior studies she leans toward applying to other's and in your case. It would be wise also to read the books she has and other books and be your own advocate.
One last question: why do you think Moose can live peacefully in the given environment?
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1713
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| 11/26/2008 12:19 PM |
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Francine-
I appreciate your concern I really do but I have done my homework. I know my dog and I know my dog is capable of learning a different way to deal with the situations that make him upset. In my opinion a dog can learn to reason. To me a dog reasons when the owner says sit they then either 1. do it as they know they will get a good reward or 2. They don't because they decided not to. If that isn't reasoning then I guess we have different explenations of reasoning.
Once again I don't feel like I have to defend the decision I am making to ANYONE. I appreciate you asking me questions but I have done my homework over the past two weeks on this matter and have lost A LOT of sleep figuring out what the right decision is. This trainer has been HIGHLY recomended by MANY people I respect very much. I am VERY confident in the trainer, in my dog and in my family to work through this situation.
I also don't think this is a temperment issue. If it were there would be at least some agression issues in either his siblings, his parents, or the "oops" litter of pups we had. And there has been no such issue. What I personaly think happened is I was stupid when I decided to get him and got him too early at 6 weeks. He was the first pup to leave. At that time I didn't know the benefit to leaving the pups with mom longer. So I think that has something to do with it. But I could be WAY off kilter. We also have had sooooo much change in our lives in the last year 1. Adding our son to the family, 2.My old girl and pack leader Spot passing away and 3. A new dog being added. All this plays into the pack dinamics with both the kids and the family.
When a dog does lick another one it is a sing of submission to that dog. It does not show endearing signs like it does in a human but one who walks up to another and licks that dog is showing that it feels that dog is higher in the pecking order than themselves. And no he doesn't go lick jayden after a reprimand. He does it on his own.
We will be working on Jayden becoming higher in the pack than the dogs view him now and things like this.
Once again I know my dog and know that he has the ability to live peacfully in our home. It just means us changing some things and working through some issues with him. And if we can't work through the issues with him then he will go back to our friend.
I will soon also start a log both here and at home of our progress so you can all follow along with it and give comment. |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP CH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor- CH BNJ Rumor Has It- NA II
www.dasuquin.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:3916
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| 11/26/2008 12:51 PM |
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You sound determined. I didn't want to upset you. I wanted to put some thoughts in the fore front of your mind and make you certain you didn't have any lingering doubts or questions. You sound as tho you do not have second thoughts and this is good. You must be certain that this will work and visualize it working or it will fail.
I look foward to reading your log and seeing some pictures of Jayden with Moose.
You already have strong,sound family dynamics going on and I know you will be satisfied with the end result.
The best of luck and my thoughts are with you.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1713
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| 11/26/2008 1:07 PM |
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You didn't upset me at all Francine. If you had I would have let you know through PM. Don't worry about it! I know you are wanting what is best all around. I do appreciate it.
I am determined. I value my dogs very close behind my child and husband. To many that is odd but they are my kids too! Believe me if I thought daycare was good for the dogs I would send them but I worked at one and saw more BAD behavior caused by dog daycares than good! Since getting our dogs we have not taken a vacation with just me and my hubby or us and our child. Anywhere we go for more than a day the dogs come with or we don't go. Well except for getting our son from Guatemala. But that wasn't a vacation either! LOL! |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP CH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor- CH BNJ Rumor Has It- NA II
www.dasuquin.com |
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