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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:431
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| 06/26/2008 1:23 AM |
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Wow really goes to show the difference in people and how they train their dogs. I would have picked up my dog, thanked my judge and my gunners for their time because in my eyes my dog just busted that bird.
In my eyes a dog knows a unshot bird from a dead or a shot one they smell the blood. These are hunt tests and should be juded as if you were hunting. Had you been on wild birds that would be a bird lost.
No the dog didnt bump another bird what I am saying is what is the difference between the bird that was "shot" and a bird laying in the field. Up here depending on the judge it could be a fail. Like you say it depends on if the dog scents the bird.
Had this been a hunting situation that dog should point the 2nd bird. I have had dogs bringing dead game back and lock up again. Thats a hunting a good bird dog.
Pixie lets not get on the argument between hunting dogs because you really dont know what a true hunting dog is.
Like I said above I would have picked up my dog because in my eyes that wouldnt have been a pass I would have been happy with. Unless I sent him for the retrieve. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/26/2008 5:20 AM |
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Ryan,
so, an AKC HT test is all about true hunting dogs? It is more about my kind of hunting then yours.
You may have standards for your dog and that's great. You would have every right to pick your dog up.But, you are wrong. You assessed the situation completely wrong and now you are trying to divert attention to my lack of wild bird hunting. Typical of a loser.
No bird was bumped and the dog did nothing wrong. You would have picked your dog up for no reason.
You are talking about a second bird that does not exist.
The difference between a bird that was shot, or not in this case, and a bird laying in the field, is that the bird that was shot, or not in this case, is a bird that was flushed and shot at. In the dog's eyes, this bird was hit and the dog wanted it. The bird laying in the field, when you say laying, are you referring to a bird that is just there but not dead?, is that the dog would point this bird b/c it is not moving or maybe just walking around. It was the flush and possible running that caused the dog's prey drive to set in so high and chase and retrieve.
Not every dog knows the difference between a wounded bird and a non-wounded bird. Some are not experienced enough. The age of the dog and the experience level of the dog in the scenario was not stated.Since this is SH, it would be safe to assume the dog had 1 season behind it? And since wild birds evoke different hunting skills in a dog (don't even say it, we ALL KNOW already)then would pen raised birds it would also be assumed the dog may have been confused about wheather or not the bird was healthy to begin with.
Quote:
Had you been on wild birds that would be a bird lost.
Why?
It was not stated if the dog saw the bird go down after a few hundred yards. If so, the dog may have assumed the bird was hit.
Where a wild bird would have kept going, flying strong. It is not known that if the bird kept going if the dog would have stopped and come back realizing chase is futile.It is not know if the bird would have flushed after the dog caught up with it if the dog would have stopped to flush. It is not known if the handler gave a command to call the dog off. Some people want their dog to chase to build desire and work on more steadiness
after SH.
So you see, you created a scenario that did not exist and then you expect everyone to see your view. Stick with what was posted not your version of why everyone and their dog is less then you and your dog.
Now, that came out much better then how I started, and I get to stay on the forum, until the next time you behave like a ......
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/26/2008 5:24 AM |
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Did I mention,along with others? :
THERE WAS NO SECOND BIRD!!!!!!!!!!!
To think I stood up for you when Ross questioned wheather or not you wanted a date with him on v-dogs.
What was I thinking???
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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amos1
Posts:3
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| 06/26/2008 5:32 AM |
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I am new to this forum stuff so I watched and read for a while,so here is my first ever post.I would like to tell you how I saw my bracemate judged in this situation.1.dog pointedin backcourse 2.bird flushed and flew 20 feeet 3.blank fired 4.dog chased and retrieved to hand.5 dog was not qualified becauseand I quote the judge"the bird was not shot with a shotgun.the dog should know the difference between a shotgun and a blank gun" .I think that was a lot to ask a dog to be responsible for. This is a lot for a dog to process in a matter of a few seconds when he is allowed to break at the shot.I have seen birds that couldnt fly on rainy days thrown in birdfields with gunners missing them at this close range and dogs being sent to retrieve that were not actually bloodied with dogs being scored on the retrieve.Sometimes shot or not is hard for a dog to determine in a split second or in the matter of a few feet. We are sitting on the horse watching it unfold and need to think about how it goes through his brain.All he knows is there is a shot fired and he needs to retrieve the bird to you.
Phil |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/26/2008 7:17 AM |
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Phil,
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
That one is unbelievable!!
Is that stated in the rule book?, that a dog now needs to know the difference between a shotgun and a blank?
If I were that owner I would have had enough of AKC and not test again.
Why is it that 1 judge can tell a handler to pick up the dog w/o conferring with the other judges? How could the other judges allow this bogus judging?
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
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| 06/26/2008 7:36 AM |
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Pixie had it right, I promise. I've gone over exactly this question with Bonnie. Ryan is inserting his opinion, which can't come in to play in judging a hunt test. There are lots of reasons why senior is harder to judge than master and this is one of them.
Jean |
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"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:431
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| 06/26/2008 8:47 AM |
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" No bird was bumped and the dog did nothing wrong. You would have picked your dog up for no reason. "
In my eyes the initial bird is being busted/bumped when the dog rushes in the for the retrieve. Like I said before the bird is not shot and the dog should point it. A SH level dog should know the difference by now.
If a dog thinks that any bird that was shot at and flies away is shot and not missed its not a dog I would want to hunt over. A dog needs to know the difference and whether he wants it or not needs to be able to point unharmed missed birds.
" Not every dog knows the difference between a wounded bird and a non-wounded bird."
If the dog doesnt know then it shouldnt be in SH. A SH dog is a dog you should be happy to hunt over and by this requirement I wouldnt be happy or anyone else I hunt with for that matter. Too many birds would be lost because the dog cant tell the difference between a shot bird and one that isnt shot. Now if this were MH we wouldnt be having this debate because the dog would still be standing there and you could send him on to relocate that bird instead of retrieving it.
Pixie had this been a real hunting situation the wild bird would just flush before the dog got there presenting no opportunity for a shot because the bird and dog are so far away. Not all the time will a wild bird fly away. I have had pheasants hop on me 25 yards 30 yards or even go 75 yards if I shoot at them. If my dogs didnt know the difference I would have gotten a 2nd chance. If you want to chase t build desire go back to JH. This is a SH level dog the desire should already be built.
There was no scenario created I just have a different view of a SH dog compared to most people I guess. What I was asking was the difference between rushing in on this bird or pumping another. Well there is none and a dog would have been failed had it bumped a different bird. Maybe you wouldnt have failed that dog but I would have.
" If I were that owner I would have had enough of AKC and not test again."
You dont test with AKC anyway. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/26/2008 9:56 AM |
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quote:
In my eyes the initial bird is being busted/bumped when the dog rushes in the for the retrieve. Like I said before the bird is not shot and the dog should point it. A SH level dog should know the difference by now
from the AKC glossary: bumping birds: scenting and then causing game to fly without establishing point.
When the dog made the retrieve the bird did not fly,it was retrieved.
Hence, not bumped.
You are assuming the bird was in a position to be pointed again. What if the bird was running?
Quote:
If a dog thinks that any bird that was shot at and flies away is shot and not missed its not a dog I would want to hunt over. A dog needs to know the difference and whether he wants it or not needs to be able to point unharmed missed birds.
Again, you don't know if the dog saw the bird fly down. These are pen raised birds. How far do you think it flew?
This is SH. Steady to shot is the only requirement. Steady to shot means the dog can break after the shot. Again, you are assuming the bird was in a position to be pointed again by the dog. What if the bird was running?
quote:" Not every dog knows the difference between a wounded bird and a non-wounded bird."
and Ryan said:
quote:
If the dog doesnt know then it shouldnt be in SH. A SH dog is a dog you should be happy to hunt over and by this requirement I wouldnt be happy or anyone else I hunt with for that matter. Too many birds would be lost because the dog cant tell the difference between a shot bird and one that isnt shot. Now if this were MH we wouldnt be having this debate because the dog would still be standing there and you could send him on to relocate that bird instead of retrieving it.
where do you get this stuff from?
If a shot is fired and the bird goes down,missed, then how would the dog know if it was missed? So, when the dog gets there he is supposed to not make the retrieve, even tho he can, b/c the bird was missed? You would want the dog to repoint a bird that allows itself to be retrieved? You would want to walk all the way to where the bird landed just to shoot it? You would risk looseing that bird?
quote:
Pixie had this been a real hunting situation the wild bird would just flush before the dog got there presenting no opportunity for a shot because the bird and dog are so far away. Not all the time will a wild bird fly away. I have had pheasants hop on me 25 yards 30 yards or even go 75 yards if I shoot at them. If my dogs didnt know the difference I would have gotten a 2nd chance. If you want to chase t build desire go back to JH. This is a SH level dog the desire should already be built.
Ryan, I don't know what you are referring to. The scenario was about a dog at a test where the bird was pointed and flushed and the dog chased and a possible retrieve could have been made. Being steady past shot is considered a finished dog. Congratulations. You seem to own one.
You have a way of insulting people and dogs you don't even know and are making judgements on them unfairly. Being humble must be an inherited trait, one you seem to not be in possession of.
quote:
There was no scenario created I just have a different view of a SH dog compared to most people I guess. What I was asking was the difference between rushing in on this bird or pumping another. Well there is none and a dog would have been failed had it bumped a different bird. Maybe you wouldnt have failed that dog but I would have.
Yes, you have YOUR view of a SH dog. And it has nothing to do with the way the standard was written.
In the standard the dog is allowed to break at shot. If the dog bumps a bird, and remember the definition of a bumped bird?, then the dog would deserve to have the score lowered. Not fail b/c when the dog is in high prey drive I would make an exception and consider that the dog was focusing on the bird that was flushed and possibly did not scent the other bird. If afterwards birds were bumped I would disqualify the dog.
quote:" If I were that owner I would have had enough of AKC and not test again."
quote:You dont test with AKC anyway
this is correct. I used to and still consider doing it. I have always been judged fairly in AKC HTs but when I read stuff like this I wonder how long it will be before I get a self-important judge.
I would gladly enter MH if I could be assured the judges are not like this.
That is, if I can keep the beast steady. Damn european blood. (european dogs are easy to train but more difficult to keep trained)I think I need to incorporate the e-collar into training.oops! Did I say that?
There you go Ryan, I set myself up. Jump on it!
Francine
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
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| 06/26/2008 11:42 AM |
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Ryan, you aren't listening. The question was regarding how the judge should judge it, not what you personally think should be done. The rules must govern, not personal opinion. |
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"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 06/26/2008 11:47 AM |
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| OK folks lets get back to the point. The point is we are playing a game. The game is AKC Hunting Tests for Pointing Breeds, specifically at the Senior level. Now this game has rules. Like any game when played it is being officiated to make sure that the participants are playing the game in accordance with the rules of the game. It is the intent of this discussion to enlighten, both judges and participants, as to the subtleties or nuances of the rules of the game. This is not a discussion on changing the rules of the game. If one does not like the rules of the game then one is free to not play the game. If one wants to play the game and learn more about the rules of the game then stick around. |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 06/26/2008 12:43 PM |
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I am new to this forum stuff so I watched and read for a while,so here is my first ever post.I would like to tell you how I saw my bracemate judged in this situation.1.dog pointedin backcourse 2.bird flushed and flew 20 feeet 3.blank fired 4.dog chased and retrieved to hand.5 dog was not qualified becauseand I quote the judge"the bird was not shot with a shotgun.the dog should know the difference between a shotgun and a blank gun" .I think that was a lot to ask a dog to be responsible for. This is a lot for a dog to process in a matter of a few seconds when he is allowed to break at the shot.I have seen birds that couldnt fly on rainy days thrown in birdfields with gunners missing them at this close range and dogs being sent to retrieve that were not actually bloodied with dogs being scored on the retrieve.Sometimes shot or not is hard for a dog to determine in a split second or in the matter of a few feet. We are sitting on the horse watching it unfold and need to think about how it goes through his brain.All he knows is there is a shot fired and he needs to retrieve the bird to you.
Phil
Phil first this judge is an idiot. Second this is a great example of the difference between positive and negative judging, as well as a good example of why many people can get soured by just one outing with a bad judge.
A positive judge is always looking for reasons to pass a dog, and in any questionable circumstance gives the benefit of the doubt to the dog.
A negative judge is always looking for a reason to pick a dog up and in any questionable circumstance orders the dog up.
It's also a great example of something I find despicable which is judges making rules up, and ignoring what is written. CR |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 06/26/2008 12:44 PM |
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Posted By RyanGSP on 06/26/2008 1:23 AM
Wow really goes to show the difference in people and how they train their dogs. I would have picked up my dog, thanked my judge and my gunners for their time because in my eyes my dog just busted that bird.
In my eyes a dog knows a unshot bird from a dead or a shot one they smell the blood. These are hunt tests and should be juded as if you were hunting. Had you been on wild birds that would be a bird lost.
No the dog didnt bump another bird what I am saying is what is the difference between the bird that was "shot" and a bird laying in the field. Up here depending on the judge it could be a fail. Like you say it depends on if the dog scents the bird.
Had this been a hunting situation that dog should point the 2nd bird. I have had dogs bringing dead game back and lock up again. Thats a hunting a good bird dog.
Pixie lets not get on the argument between hunting dogs because you really dont know what a true hunting dog is.
Like I said above I would have picked up my dog because in my eyes that wouldnt have been a pass I would have been happy with. Unless I sent him for the retrieve.
Ryan it's not hunting, it's a hunt test and it may only be judged by the criteria laid out in the AKC Hunt test guide lines. CR |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:431
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| 06/26/2008 12:54 PM |
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If the bird is running the dog should still lock up on point. I wouldnt expect the point to be as intense as if the bird were sitting under his nose. You can look at a dog onpoint and tell what the bird is doing even is the dog is rock solid broke. Your right I used the wrong term the dog has busted in on the bird when it should have pointed it. Yes the bird is in the position to be pointed again.
When the dog gets to a bird that isnt shot yes the dog should point and no it shouldnt retrieve. Why should the dog be allowed to make the retrieve on a bird that isnt shot? The dog should be relocating that bird and pointing it not retrieving it. The only reason these birds are able to be retrieved is because quite frankly they are shit birds. If these birds were able to fly like their wild counter parts your dog would be chasing it across the country it wouldnt be able to catch the bird. So yes I want my dog to relocate and lock up on point. If the bird is running then you relocate and lock that bird down.
Pixie I dont use ecollars and if you wish to use them the more power to you I really dont care. Oh and I have a half european dog here and I have no problems breaking him and keeping him broke as long as I dont get lazy on my part maybe its just the lines you are choosing.
I thought hunt tests are supposed to replicate hunting? If that isnt so then maybe we need to revise the HT rules. |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:431
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| 06/26/2008 12:56 PM |
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| Pixie I dont know why you dont AKC test. Those dogs of yours are kings on the pen birds so they should do quiet well on the test grounds. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/26/2008 2:11 PM |
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An experienced, better trained dog will point a running bird but it becomes questionable once that running bird goes out of view,especially if the bird is running in cover. A dog experienced with relocating can do the job but still we are talking about SH here.
Again, in the scenario presented we don't know what the bird was doing once it hit the ground or the level of the dog. You can say what you would like to happen or even what you expect to happen but this is life and life doesn't always work the way we plan. Dogs are hyped and hanlders are nervous at tests and some dogs just can't be relied upon to act "normal".
Ryan, on this board you said you started your dog with the e-collar and you finished him with the e-collar. Is this a different dog?
1/2 a dog doesn't count.
HTs are far from hunting. But, as long as the dog handles the game presented to it correctly then that dog is a has done its job.
Well, Ryan, thank you for the compliment.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
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| 06/26/2008 3:43 PM |
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Ryan, please act like a grownup or keep your comments to yourself. Your sarcasm is not productive. |
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"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 06/26/2008 3:47 PM |
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| Ryan what you "think" is idea bird dog work is irrelevant. As we've politely pointed out several times we are discussing the Rules pertaining to dogs competing in an AKC hunt test at the Senior level. CR |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 06/26/2008 4:24 PM |
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| OK Ryan lets move your gripe to a different thread. You start the forum and I will join you over there. We will discuss what it is you think a well trained HUNTING DOG is and should be tested for. I am not trying to stop you from expressing your view but it has become very disruptive because it is off subject and keeps dragging others of on your tangent which has nothing to do with what this forum was started for. |
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dogginit
Posts:1
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| 06/28/2008 11:27 PM |
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To the point - judgement in the backfield ends at the shot for SH - period. Do you want to be a positive judge or a negative judge? Matters not to me, but it's your reputation that's on the line. Look for the reasons to keep a dog, not for the reasons to throw a dog out. To do anything less cheapens the reason for you to be judging in the first place, and knowing that, I would not ask you to judge for my event if I thought you would be that negative..
Since this is my first post here, I will list my credentials. I bought my first GSP 13 years ago, just wanting a hunting companion. At the urging of the breeder, I entered him in my first hunt test, and finished him in 4 straight. In the intervening years, I have judged hunt tests and field trials both, and can't have done too bad a job, as folks still keep asking me to judge. Look me up on the AKC website, Chris Tewes from Oregon. Charlie, you know me from the days of SSMBBS. At the rate of 35 dogs a stake, I've watched probably 3,000 dogs, whether from a handling, judging, or gunning standpoint.
End of story, when the gun goes off (blank or shotgun), the dog thinks it's free to go for a retrieve in SH. If it comes back with a bird, I'm OK with that, if it doesn;'t that's OK too. While a true HUNTING DOG should know the difference between a shot bird and a not-shot bird, we have to remember that many of the dogs that run in HTs are never run on wild birds, nor are they trained that way. In the back course, the retrieve is a non-event, judgement ends at the shot.
If you were in the birdfield, and the bird was missed by the gunners, how would you judge the same scenario?
And RyanGSP, you're an idiot, plain and simple. You take what you can get frrom the judges, when you can get it, knowing that things aren't always going to go your way. Pick up your dog if you'd like, but, as much as we'd like them to be, hunt tests are not hunting, and everyone has different standards for how they'd like their dogs to perform.
Chris Tewes
DoubleGun Ranch
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 06/29/2008 7:58 AM |
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| Hi Chris, welcome to the pea patch. At first I thought your post was about the subject at hand. But on further re-reading I can also take it as entirely directed to the one individual who does not want to discuss the existing rules of the game. Which was your intent? |
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| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
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