Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 06/24/2008 12:02 PM |
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A friend and I were discussing Hunt Test judging. After much discussion we had backed ourself into a corner yet we both came to the same conclusion on how it should be judged. I would now like to verify our conclusion. The case in question is as follows. It is a Senior Hunt Test . On the back course the dog goes on point. The handler goes forward and flushes the bird. When the handler fires the blank gun the dog breaks and chases the bird. 1) How do you judge the situation if the dog comes back with the bird? 2) How do you judge the situation if the dog does not bring the bird back? |
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RyanGSP
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Posts:430
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| 06/24/2008 2:40 PM |
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IMO a dog should know a downed bird from a live one. If the dog grabs the bird and brings it back it shouldnt fail but needs to be docked. Personally I would fail my own dog because IMO thats a bird he busted in on and grabbed instead of retrieved.
This was an issue this year here in Canada I noticed dogs would bring the birds back because the birds wouldnt fly that far or strong so the dogs could catch them. This IMO is wrong. It would be no different than you flushing up a covey or a pheasant, missing the bird, and he lands 75 or 100 yards away (yes this has happened to me more than once). A good dog needs to know the bird was missed and to relocate. If they go in for the retrieve he is just going to bust the wild bird and not present you with a shot.
This is just another reason to hunt with a totally broke dog. You can send him with a relocate command instead of him thinking he is going in for a retrieve. |
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pixie bee
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Posts:4449
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| 06/24/2008 3:32 PM |
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A SH needs only be steady to shot.
If the dog brings the bird back then retrieving should be scored accordingly.
If no bird was brought back then the retrieve cannot be scored for this instance.
Since no retrieve is required in the back course I can not see how not retrieving the bird would be scored at all in the retrieve category.
This would probably be a good time for the handler to not give any commands. No commands - no ignored commands - no docking is obedience.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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RyanGSP
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Posts:430
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| 06/25/2008 12:06 AM |
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Pixie you need to reread the question. It is a blank gun being used so there is no bird being shot. So no way can there be a retrieve unless the dog grabs the bird after it has landed. This is where the dog would be busting in on the bird instead of pointing. This would be an automatic fail.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4449
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| 06/25/2008 5:23 AM |
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The dog is judged to shot. The dog is steady to shot. Judgement really should end after the shot, it is nice tho, to give the dog the credit for the retrieve.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 06/25/2008 7:11 AM |
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| Francine is at the same place that my friend and I ended up at. The case is no different than being in the bird field and the gunners fire but miss. As Francine stated, at Senior level, the dog is judges on steadiness until the gun is fired. Again IF a retrieve is done the dog is judged on the retrieve. Also as Francine pointed out, if a retrieve is not done, the handler is advised to move the dog along with little or no command so that Trainability does not become an issue. My friend and I got to this conclusion while exploring the subject of Delayed Chase. Both of us have had our dogs failed and not failed for this same case. When failed Delayed Chase was given as the reason. |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 06/25/2008 9:44 AM |
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Did some thinking about this last night and took a look at the Rule Book.
I feel that Pixie is 100% accurate.
If a retrieve is made, the retrieve is scored.
If no retrieve is attempted and the dog hunts on, Judging ended after the shot.
If a retrieve is attempted and the Handler makes no command to the contrary, remains silent; their is no delayed chase whether a retrieve is made or not and again, Judging ended after the shot.
If a retrieve is attempted and the handler calls the dog off and moves it on, Judging ended after the shot with no delayed chase; as the dog was able to be moved on and showed the trainability to be moved on.
If a retrieve is attempted and the handler attempts to call the dog off, but it continues on the retrieve, you now have delayed chase.
My .02 |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 06/25/2008 11:59 AM |
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I dont understand how this can be considered as a retrieve when there was no bird shot?
I can see where you guys are coming from but this is a live bird on the ground without any pellets in it. If this were really hunting and the dog ran in like that for the retrieve all it would do is bump the bird. Even now to make the retrieve the dog has to bust in on a bird without any shot in it. Maybe SH is different but in FD if your dog bumps a bird or runs in on a bird its an automatic fail. If I were judging thats how I would see it. Maybe not a fail but the dog would receive minimum passing points. |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 06/25/2008 12:01 PM |
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Pixie I know the dog only needs but be broke to shot but it is also judged on what happens after the shot as well. Whether it be on the retrieve or not.
What if the dog had bumped another bird while it was going after this one how would that be looked at? Once again I believe the dog should fail because it should have pointed that bumped bird. Bumping that second bird would be no different than busting in on that 1st bird. |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 06/25/2008 12:56 PM |
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| Ryan, remember that in the case stated the dog did not bump the bird and chase. The dog pointed the bird. The dog was steady to flush. The dog broke on the shot. As for your last comment about another bird - This is fairly well covered in Guidelines for Pointing Breed Hunting Tests, Part II, Point 5 Retrieving. And again it makes no difference whether it occurs in the bird field or on the back course. I am unfamiliar with FD but I would hazard a guess that even if the dog is steady to command to retrieve you can still encounter these cases in the bird field and would have to be prepared to judge the different situations. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4449
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| 06/25/2008 12:57 PM |
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Okay, I will elaborate.
So far Ryan, you have only added "what ifs". Not what was stated as actually happening. What happened was the dog chased after the shot and a) brought a bird back or b) brought no bird back. Nothing was mentioned about other birds.
Now, the dog did not bump any bird. The bird was flushed and the dog was steady to shot,as required.This bird hit the ground and was running. There is no way, unless the bird ran into cover and stayed there, that the hunter would later find this bird and shoot it. In my eyes, the dog did the correct thing. The dog chased, the bird did not flush, the dog brought back game that otherwise would have been left to hawks and coyotes. When I am hunting I care about bringing game to the table, not so much if my dog behaved like a finished,titled dog. I have taught my dog to bring back any game that allows him to. I will only shoot a bird on the ground or in a tree if it is wounded. I will not shoot a live, healthy, non-flushing bird. My dog MUST pick this game up or it will be left behind to be eaten by the wild animals.
What if the dog bumped another bird - well, I can assume that the dog has a good nose and would have stopped to point it, if not, then the hunter better be ready for wild flushes. In the case of testing, if the dog bumped another bird I would hope the judges take into consideration if the dog actually could have smelled the bird or could have seen the bird. The bird could have flushed for any reason, not neccessarily the from the dog.
I am not aware, in this scenario, that the dog bumped any bird.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4449
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| 06/25/2008 1:05 PM |
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It would be considered a retrieve,Ryan, b/c the dog picked up the bird and brought it to the handler. It matters little if the bird was shot. It is how the dog handled the retreive. This is SH, judgement ends at the shot. The retreive could be not judged at all, but it would be nice if it were. Any dog that brings back game gets a plus in my book.
This is all about natural ability. If an owner only judges their dog based on the test rules and scores that owner would be short changing their dog and will have little understanding of what hunting is truely all about. A good hunting dog is born, not trained.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 06/25/2008 5:05 PM |
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Ryan you cannot judge a hunt test by any other standard than the one laid out for the test. Dog does everything right up to the shot that's all that matters here.
Whether it's a blank pistol, shotgun blank, or live shot cartrige makes no difference in SH.
Now if the dog goes off busting and chasing birds follwoing the shot the dog would be marked down on trainability and obedience but in the case described above there is no fault on the dogs part.
This is a test for SH, not MH. CR |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 06/25/2008 5:06 PM |
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| Ken to clarify. In this situation if the dog doesn't bring a bird back there is no reason to mark him down as the retrieve is not REQUIRED on a bird that's only blanked. CR |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 06/25/2008 6:06 PM |
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| WildRose, In actuality your statement is true no matter how the bird is shot at (blank or live round) in the Hunt Test. If the gunners in the bird field when using live ammunition fire and totally miss the bird as long as the dog is steady until shot is fired and 1) dog retrieves any bird you score the retrieve or 2) dog does not retrieve anything then it is a non event as far as retrieve is concerned. You give dog another chance to perform the retrieve. Also check in Guidelines for Pointing Breed Hunting Tests, Part II, Point 5 Retrieving for more cases where dog should be given another chance to perform retrieve. |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
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Posts:471
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| 06/25/2008 6:52 PM |
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| Ken I'm only addressing the situation you laid out. Not getting into exceptions or reasons to call a dog back for a failed retrieve under odd circumstances. If the dog refuses or fails to retrieve a shot bird under normal circumstances he is going to be marked down. If he fails to retrieve at all he's going to fail. CR |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
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Posts:731
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| 06/25/2008 10:06 PM |
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Should the dog bump a bird in SH, it had better Stop to Flush, or be commanded to do so. Section 4 Trainability
Something to also keep in mind, these ARE NOT Wild birds. These are usually poor flying birds that will only go a very short distance before setting back down and in many cases, can't muster the energy for a 2nd flight even though their life DOES depend on it. When considering pen birds, a retrieve of a live, not shot(though shot in the dogs mind) bird is not only highly possible, but quite often likely.
A quote from the Rule Book, Section 5 Page 34: "A dog should be able to retrieve a crippled running bird. A dog which is able to complete the retrieve of a running bird should not be scored lower for killing the bird, provided the bird is not damaged to the extent of being inedible."
In the case as made by Ken, the dog was steady to the shot, broke at the shot and as far as the dog is concerned, if the bird is coming down/landing whether live or dead, it is a shot bird that needs to be retrieved....
Now I know why I train for Master to run Senior.... ;-)
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 06/25/2008 10:39 PM |
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Should the dog bump a bird in SH, it had better Stop to Flush, or be commanded to do so. Section 4 Trainability Bruce you even have me confused tossing this one in. Yes that applies in all cases except when the dog is sent for a retrieve, or is attempting to make one without being commanded but after showing steadiness through the shot.
Another situation which can occur is the appearance
of a second live bird which pops up in the general vicinity
of a downed bird. The dog is sent to retrieve a
downed bird and either grabs or chases the second
bird. Judges should not score the dog lower in
Retrieving for this action and should score the dog on
its retrieve if it returns with the bird. |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 06/25/2008 11:24 PM |
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I follow what your saying with that section Charlie.
I was actually responding to Ryan's question quoted below:
"What if the dog had bumped another bird while it was going after this one how would that be looked at?"
I took what he was saying, not as a bird popping up near/in the general vicinity of where a bird has gone down, but rather in the path of the retrieve/chase as a wild flushed bird. Thoughts?
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 06/25/2008 11:27 PM |
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I took what he was saying, not as a bird popping up near/in the general vicinity of where a bird has gone down, but rather in the path of the retrieve/chase as a wild flushed bird. Thoughts?
I'm taking it all in the context of the original question asked.
Now if the dog has been sent or is going for a retrieve, it's a moot point as long as he's heading in the direction of the flight of the bird. There should be no question here as to whether a STF is in order, it's not.
In the case you describe, which is a totally different circumstance with no retrieve involved you're certainly correct. Though at the senior level the dog may be commanded to stop without doing so on his own without penalty. CR |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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