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see'n'spots
north central Florida
MH
Posts:334
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| 04/22/2008 9:03 AM |
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Codyboy, its OK to have a smudge or 2 on Rose Colored Glasses-Nothing is Perfect & its good to Be Prepared.
"I think debate is over about the utility of Dog Parks, over 99.999% of the encounters are pleasant, this includes virtually all PBs."
The Rottie that tore my GSP's ear was not in a Dog Park. Sorry if you got that impression, I posted it as an example of how seemingly playful nipping can become serious.
Pointer Fan posted an important facet of DPs, the value of interaction between the dogs & the owners. Its generally a learning experience for everyone involved. The roughest aspect may be the lazy unattentive owners who fail to clean up after their dogs. Kal stays on his 50' lead until he dumps, making it easy to remove using bags provided. Its also teaching him to dump at appropriate times.
Kal loves the DP, as do most dogs & goes 3-4 times each week. I recommend DPs, but have no illusions & accept the realities. Have been using my DP for nearly 15 years. |
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MegC
Ellensburg, WA
MH
Posts:989
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| 04/22/2008 12:12 PM |
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See'n'spots: Keep in mind that I'm mushing with my dogs about 8 months out of the year, and that includes fun runs with other teams or- rarely- recreational racing. Mushers simply can't afford to have the kind of scrapping you describe when hooking up, passing in close quarters, etc. much less around the dog yard, and reaching out to 'nip' other dogs is a sure way to get yourself reprimanded or even un-invited to certain trails and events altogether. You will often see the phrase 'zero tolerance policy' on mushing boards and lists regarding human or dog aggression.
One of my mushing mentors has 23 alaskan huskies, and they can ALL be loose in a yard under supervision WITHOUT 'nipping'. Same goes for many other mushers, many with high percentage GSPs/ 'english' pointer in the pedigree. In fact some mushers have trained the dogs to 'loose drop' off the truck and the dogs will just mill around the rig without leaving, most notably the fantastically successful sprint musher Egil Ellis (who also runs 'eurohounds', hybrid alaskan husky/european pointers).
What everyone decides to put up with is up to them obviously, but 'nipping' doesn't have to be normal in group dog interactions. |
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Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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carlower1
Kansas
MH
Posts:1253
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| 04/23/2008 11:24 PM |
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| we are in the process of getting our first dog park. After hearing all this, I am not so sure I want to use the it. What I have been doing is going to our local baseball diamonds, and if a game is not going on, I lock us in the baseball field and give him leash free time. This way it is just him, me and possibly the ladies. When the kids come along with me we play "Wachter ball" it is a cross between baseball and tennis, played with a tennis racket and tennis ball, you have the pitcher the hitter and the dog.... when the hitter hits the ball.. Wachter catches it then EVERYONE has to go chase him to get the ball back which is declared a home run, or he decides to chase the person around the bases... which we have declared an out. |
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Guitar1969
Posts:8
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| 04/24/2008 4:37 PM |
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Problem in our area is no dogs are allowed on our fenced-in baseball parks - They are really nice fields and are locked up(That's not to say I don't sometimes see people with their dogs off leash in there but they have to hop af ence to do so. I can understand the cities reasoning, as we all know there are owner out there who don't clean up after their dogs, which gives all of us responsible dog owners a bad name. |
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see'n'spots
north central Florida
MH
Posts:334
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| 04/24/2008 5:06 PM |
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There is no doubt that many facilities could easily fulfill multiuse demands. The Dog Park in this thread is a disused "fenced-in baseball park" that is privately owned. Neighborhood dogs owners had "to hop a fence" for years.
A pet peeve in my area is the Rails to Trails is closed to dogs, but open to horseback riders. They were unable to come to grips w/the issue of alligators, so they closed the whole thing, instead of addressing the key points gators are a risk. A number of nearby State Park trails have also been closed to leashed dogs for many years.
I want to find a forested Dog Park. There's something grossly unnatural in running a dog on mowed grass. |
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caly1522
GA
MH
Posts:270
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| 04/30/2008 7:05 PM |
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I went to the dog park for the first time today. I had read this thread and went in with all of these stories in mind. One of my GSP's, Kerney, did fine. Bailey on the other hand didn't take it so well. Bailey is a little more hesitant when meeting new dogs. She warms up typically though. Soon after we got there a Pit Bull arrived. This is when the issues really started. The Pit Bull started chasing my dogs around. Kerney out ran him so he left her alone. Bailey doesn't run. She tried to get him to leave her alone. She ran to me and the PB jumped up on me and I put him on the ground. The man that brought it followed it around with a water bottle and would squirt it when he was close enough. Not really sure this is the best training method I've ever seen. The dog knew when the guy couldn't get him and didn't ever really listen to him.
This whole situation pissed me off. Bailey was petrified!! I put her up on the bench with me until that guy left. The other ladies around me helped keep the PB away. This ruined our first time at the park. Bailey was to afraid to play after being chased like that. I'm not saying he wanted to hurt her but I definitely think he wanted to do more than play.
Now I don't know if I should take her back. She started playing some after the PB was gone but she was still nervous. Do you think she will do better next time if he's not there? She is typically the alpha female. She is use to playing with a big dog. I just don't want to take her somewhere she is going to be that scared.
Any advice?? |
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"To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." -Pre |
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Mydogiscrazy
Chapel Hill NC
MH
Posts:323
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| 04/30/2008 7:35 PM |
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I am sorry you all have experienced bad days at the park. But that may be what they are, just bad days. All people don't like each other and not all dogs have to either. Trick is to keep two dogs that don't like each other apart; and tricky to keep unleashed dogs away from each other, and first you have to know which dogs don't get along. I take my girls a few times weekly, and when Lacey and I are cooped up in the boyfriends apartment, we go twice a day (yeah, I have that much time on my hands). I think dog parks are vital.
One, they allow dogs to exercise beyond what some humans are willing to do. Wrestling a 100 pound dumb lab or racing in circles with a greyhound will defintely tire out a GSP more than a leisurely walk.
Two, socializing. Meeting new dogs, puppies to old guys, meeting big dogs and little dogs, meeting people and little kids, meeting a goat (now that was a dog park conflict, he was finally banished permanently), are all very important socializing.
Good owners will make the best of their time in a park. Don't stand with all the other humans, because then the dogs do too. Move around so dogs don't bunch up and encourage more playing too. Stay nearby and pay attention to what your dog is doing. Be ready to punish your dog for bad behavior, or stop it before it starts more importantly.
Lacey has always been an alpha dog. How I have two alpha-dogs I am not sure, and I am pretty sure that makes me a gamma, theta, or zeta... So now our focus when we are in the dog park is to work with Lacey to be less dominant. I ask other owners to let me use their dogs for whichever goal we are working towards: not being scared of big dogs with shaggy hair and hiding eyes or letting a puppy toy poodle use Lacey's belly as a hurdle. This last trip I discovered Lacey was scared to death of umbrellas- the one I was under!!! She barked like heck at me from across the park and hid behind her daddy.
Dog fights get nasty fast. And I hate pit bulls, in the most judgemental way. But I give them the benefit of the doubt until I see the first hint of aggression. If so, I keep Lacey's attention on the other side of the park. She knows not to go near a fight and I usually whistle her back my direction if I get the feeling something bad might happen. But overall the trick is to pay attention. Pay attention to your dog, other dogs, and their owners. Then anticipate what could happen, if you don't like the atmosphere on a bad day, get out. |
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see'n'spots
north central Florida
MH
Posts:334
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| 05/01/2008 8:00 AM |
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Why doesn't this surprise me? Sorry to predict the future, but it is a good controlled, or at least semi controlled, way to introduce your dogs to aggressive behavior. The hope is that dolt PB owners will get the message & take control of their objectionable dogs. Kal has learned valuable lessons on how to cope. He knows he can outrun them, but still gets ambushed, especially when tired & assaulted by sprinting PBs. He knows most chases are defused if he stops running & risks being nipped by stopping. He knows that a persistant PB can be thrown off by a 'team' effort. I'll call him, he'll draw the offending dog to me & knows I'll toss the 50' lead at the dog or distract it.
Posted By caly1522 on 04/30/2008 7:05 PM
Soon after we got there a Pit Bull arrived. This is when the issues really started. The Pit Bull started chasing my dogs around.
Any advice??
My GSP only wants to run at the dog park. All to often some PBs only want to dominate other dogs at the dog park. The sad part is that these traits are expressed from deep down in their DNA. I was at the dog park last night & 2 PB mixes were running amuck & their happless owners were failing to cope. Fortunately(?) Kal could easily outrun both of them & the PBs soon gave up & decided to take out their aggression on other dogs. I don't object to "chasing" alone, however PBs usually try to nip & trip up Kal.
Did you approach the PB's owner & warn them about their dog's bad behavior? IMO that's been the worst aspect & was the main theme of this thread. PB owners who know their PBs are habitually aggressive at dog parks are more to blame than their dogs. They need to either leash their dogs or take them out, if they can't control them. PB owners who ignore, even encourage, their dogs to consistantly chase other dogs aggressively & consider it normal play are the primary issue.
One of my dog park's worst PB offenders was there last night as well. However the owner has gotten the message & routinely leashes the PB whenever aggression starts. His PB has also learned who I am & listens to me after I'd tossed the 50' lead on her like a net a couple of times. I was able to stop this PB from chasing another dog. The PB's owner has become very amiable, there's been progress & his PB no longer chases or nips Kal.
The 'new' PB "Conflict" had more to do w/the miserable owner's nasty attitude. I have low tolerance for a confrontational dog owner who beats the snot out of their dog in front of people.
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Pointer Fan
Westminster, Colorado
MH
Posts:954
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| 05/01/2008 7:36 PM |
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| Generally the rules at a good dog park state that dogs must be properly socialized if let off leash. At our dog park the dog owners pretty much enforce that rule. Very few agressive dogs show up there----guess they have gotten the message. My guess is if you speak up to the PB owner the other dog owners will follow suit. |
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caly1522
GA
MH
Posts:270
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| 05/01/2008 7:48 PM |
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i went back today. The PB was not there but there were several other aggressive dogs. I'm not sure how the owners let their dogs get this way. Oh wait, yes I am. The dogs did stuff as puppies and it was soooo cute. Then when it grew up they were afraid to discipline them. It is so annoying. I took my dogs out after things started looking bad. I just took them to the small dog side. They had a lot of fun on that side.
There was a lady there that had a young bulldog, about 8-9 months old. The lady was to afraid to pick the dog up. The dog knew this too. Every time she reached down the dog would try to bite her. She was a nice dog other than that. I'm not sure the girl knows what to do about the behavior.
I think I will just stay on the small dog side. My dogs seem to really like it there. They came home and just passed out.  |
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"To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." -Pre |
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anna1001
NC
SH
Posts:49
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| 05/02/2008 7:10 AM |
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Does anyone else watch 'Dog Whisperer' on the National Geographic channel? I watched it once because I thought it would be laugh, but the guy on that show is AMAZING. He's gone into some homes with seriously dangerous dogs that would bite their owners when they go to get the dog's food bowl, and restructured the family 'pack', making sure the people are dominant (not aggressive or harsh) to the dog. The dog always responds submissively. The show does have the same two or three principles over and over again, and I think many good owners already do most of the things he suggests intuitively. If you dont have cable (I'm lucky enough that the landlady pays for it!), there is a website for the show at http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/
Anyway, there have been several episodes involving dog park conflicts, and many of them are related to dogs not knowing where they stand in the dominance hierarchy at the parks. A lot of the dogs who think they are the pack leader because of the way their owner treats them (as you described caly1522) treat other dogs at the park the same way, and then other dogs that are insecure (as Bailey was) have trouble there. There are a lot of stories and tips on the website. I hope you all find his advice as useful as I do!
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carlower1
Kansas
MH
Posts:1253
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| 05/02/2008 7:13 AM |
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Thanks for the link Anna!
I think I can defiantly benefit from that. My biggest problem is when W is off leash he forgets his commands (or just flat ignores them) |
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see'n'spots
north central Florida
MH
Posts:334
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| 05/02/2008 10:20 AM |
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Cesar Millan is OK, but never forget the show is TV. That is, made for TV, heavily edited & optimized in the tradition of fishing shows. IMO anything peddled by Oprah is little better than Snake Oil. Most of what makes Cesar "AMAZING" can be traced to the magic of television. I'm waiting for the 'Dog Whisperer' blooper miniseries.
"I think many good owners already do most of the things he suggests intuitively."
Therein lies the problem. A great many of the dog owners you run across at Dog Parks are mediocre dog owners at best. Those I've had conflicts with were marginal & miserable dog owners. The Worst Offending PB I've had to deal w/at Dog Parks has responded to me, as has it's owner.
In Kal's case its not about dominance or submission. Its about Kal wanting only to run & the PBs only wanting to nip. Kal all but ignores other dogs & doesn't give give a dammit about dominance. The troublesome PBs want to chase & bite, often showing no interest when Kal isn't running.
Most owners intuitively understand that the objectionable PB behavior is harrassment & will lead to dog fights. Oddly enough, most PB owners seem to think their dog's aggressive nipping is normal acceptable dog play.
A point I was trying to make is that timid dogs can benefit from Dog Park socialization & learn how to defend themselves, especially w/attentive & responsible owners help. IMO its a good thing to know your dog is confident & able to stand it's ground. Its kind of like 'waterproofing' & relieves you from worry to a large degree. I also enjoyed helping the PB owners who were in over their heads & have had better results w/PBs than w/their owners! |
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everbell
Kanata, ON
MH
Posts:3166
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| 05/02/2008 10:36 AM |
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A slight detour from the thread but related in the "you can't teach people common sense when it comes to pets" files. A guy in our area was keeping a 150lb 6 month old lion cub as a pet. He gave it to a friend to babysit and it got out, thereby scaring the s*** out of an entire community.
The owner's reaction? He's done nothing wrong, there is nothing wrong with having a lion cub as a pet (even though he has small children), so give him back his lion or he'll sue.
Here's the link if you're interested in more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2008/05/01/lion-capture.html |
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Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures |
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anna1001
NC
SH
Posts:49
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| 05/02/2008 12:00 PM |
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Wow. That's hard to believe, and again, it comes down to the people. Reminds me of the 911 call about a lion in the middle of the road. The 911 operator is like, 'a what?!' and the caller says some thing like 'An African lion is chasing my car'.
That's something that I left out of my earlier post. The part that impresses me about Cesar Millan isnt his ability to work with the dogs. It's that he reads the people so well and most of the time, the 'problem' with the dog is really how the owner is acting or interacting with it. Dog perceive their owner's emotions, responses, etc. In an one episode where the dog owner was really unreceptive to Cesar, there was no change in the dog's behavior.
Things do look better on TV, and every dog is different. And his show is a bit like preaching to the choir. All of those PB owners in the dog parks wouldnt think that their dogs are behaving like pit bulls should and don't need any socialization. Which is also why they get irritated or snobby about friendly advice. People can be very frustrating... |
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see'n'spots
north central Florida
MH
Posts:334
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| 05/02/2008 10:04 PM |
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Yes, "People can be very frustrating..." but a convert is a blessing. Ran into the owner of the worst PB conflict, that's made so much progress. This Pit had nipped Kal several times & was the 1st to get the 50' lead tossed like a net. One nip on his butt, looked like nothing & was forgotten, until a couple of days later when it was infected, Kal still has a bare scar. Happily what was "very frustrating" is now quite cordial. The PB will come to me, still has a minor problem, but has an owner on top of it.
In the "look better on TV" dept, who is the British woman doing Cesar Millan's schtick on Animal Planet? Cesars' book left me flat. The shows tend to look like Reality Programing-searching for the least capable dog owners, enter the Super Hero, smacks of 'formula'.
Speaking of "African lion" as pet, I read several years ago that there were over 1400 private permits for Big Cats in FL alone. Spoke w/physician at dog park who'd lost a woman b/c of exotic venomous snake bite. The snakes were kept as "pets" & they got drunk, knocked over the tank & she got nailed. |
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everbell
Kanata, ON
MH
Posts:3166
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| 05/03/2008 10:25 AM |
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Posted By see'n'spots on 05/02/2008 10:04 PM
In the "look better on TV" dept, who is the British woman doing Cesar Millan's schtick on Animal Planet? Cesars' book left me flat. The shows tend to look like Reality Programing-searching for the least capable dog owners, enter the Super Hero, smacks of 'formula'.
There's one in Canada too called "At the end of my leash". Not only does this guy solve the animals issues, but issues with family dynamics. Must be amazing to have that kind of skill  I only wish they told us how long it took to get the animal to the new level --- they make it sound like a couple weeks. I can't imagine any serious behaviour being brought completely around in that time. |
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Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures |
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see'n'spots
north central Florida
MH
Posts:334
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| 05/03/2008 8:36 PM |
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| I'd like to see Cesar get Kal to howl on command & watch 24/7 video of how he did it. IMO "weeks" is reasonable for behavior modification. Depends how you define "serious". I'll go with 'Days' being possible, perhaps even in 'Hours' for certain behaviors & certain cooperative dogs. Cesar has pretended to do magic in the tradition of Crocodile Dundee's "old bushmen's tricks". Never seen Cesar's Bloopers & Out Takes? |
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