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Subject: Dog Park Conflict
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see'n'spotsUser is Offline
north central Florida
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04/20/2008 9:58 PM  

Happened to take Kal to a small local Dog Park in town & introduced him to the 8-10 dogs there on a lead.  Kal was 'new meat' & immediately surrounded & sniffed thoroughly.  One 40-50 lb dog was especially excited & began chasing Kal right from the start & kept nipping at him.  Kal only wanted to run away & kept getting ambushed by the same dog, it would lay & wait, then sprint to chase Kal & bite at him.  I asked who owned the aggressive dog & asked politely that they intercede.  The Twenty-Something owner was of the opinion that I was unfamiliar "with how dogs were supposed to play".  I tried to explain that Kal was very tolerant & will put up with being nipped, butted & knocked down for just so long.  My request that he control his dog fell on deaf ears.  His dog continued to harrass Kal.  One thing that dog owner didn't know was that Kal will circle ever closer to me if harrassed.  The pest refused to let up & the owner did nothing, inevitably this little nuisance was racing right at me trying to cut off Kal, so I called out to it, got it's attention, gently grabbed it & calmly asked if it was going to stop nipping Kal?  The happless dog was surprised, but calmed down & was friendly, wagging all over, happy of for the attention.

The owner went ballistic, saying "He'll do that"!  I asked him why he hadn't & told him if he wasn't-I was.  I quickly discovered this young man was as aggressive & abusive as his dog.  He started a "I come to this park all the time" defence.  I told him I didn't care if it was his 1st visit or he owned the park-he was obliged to stop his dog from harassing my dog.  I asked how he'd feel if the situation were reversed which resulted in him threatening me "To get out of his face!"  Somehow odd, considering he'd walked halfway across the field to confront me. 

A few minutes later his dog was back at it nipping at Kal's ears & tripping him up.  I began to walk in their direction to get Kal to close ranks again & this guy goes for his dog.  He yells at his dog making it cower, then beats the snot out of it in front of everyone, ending up pinning the dog to the ground w/knee to the neck.  The dog does some shrieking, another startled owner asks if his dog is OK & the fellow retreats from the park grumbling obscenities.

I'm old enough to be his Gramps & had used that park probably before he was born.  This "conflict" followed a common theme w/the handful of others I've had over the years.  The dog in question was a "Pit mix" & the owner in question was very complacent about their dog's propensity to bite other dogs.  Some even admire their dog acting dominant, I suspect that was part of this antagonist's mindset.  Last Fall a dog that could've been this one's sister nipped Kal on the butt.  I checked it at the park, didn't see anything & put it out of my mind.  Then, a couple of days later discovered a puss filled wound under Kal's skin from a nip.  There's still a bald spot & scar.  The same dog has insitigated dozens of dog fights.  I had a serious talk w/the overwelmed owners, who've made great strides.  Also had a serious talk w/that 'Pit mix' & she responds to me better than her owner If I catch her nipping at Kal.  I've seen Kal flip & don't ever want to see Kal go off on a dog that harrasses him.  To all the world Kal might look like Gumby, but I've seen his Fighting Face.  That can be 70 lbs of Baddazz GSP!  Friends have a GSD that's very protective/territorial around the kitchen & feeding time.  Somehow the Shepard got all bent out of shape & Kal turned into the 'Alien'!  I restrained him & was shocked by his fiercely bared teeth & snarled faced-so out of character.  Of course I could put my hand in his mouth.

MarieUser is Offline
Wisconsin
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04/20/2008 11:43 PM  
If we meet an aggressive dog in the dog park. My first reaction is to call Rocky over to me hook him up on his leash while body blocking the other dog and walk Rocky out of the aggressive dogs area and leave the Dog Park to return at another time. One nip form an aggressive dog on Rocky. Rocky is hooked up and is gone from dog Park.

Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231
mitUser is Offline
Harleysville, PA
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04/21/2008 5:54 AM  
I think dog parks are great, but they're not without their problems mostly being owners of other dogs. It's difficult to figure out what to do but I agree with Marie, I take my dog out of the park. Unfortunately, most dog owners like the one you encountered won't change their behavior & they feel they don't have to change the behavior of their dog. It's a shame he was abusive to his dog, that always breaks my heart.
CodyboyUser is Offline
Ohio
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04/21/2008 7:47 AM  

Good advice Marie, we have a dog park that just opened last fall and we were just talking about taking Cody to see how he does. I will use your advice, great time to read this thread.

ElsieHUser is Offline

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04/21/2008 7:57 AM  

I don't blame you for stepping up on behalf of your dog.  I think it is easy to see what is normal play and what is domineering, aggressive behavior.  I think some people secretly like to see their dog turn aggressive as it satisfies their desire to do the same. 

Good for you for standing up. 

rockspringUser is Offline
maryland
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04/21/2008 8:08 AM  

I stopped taking Joe to our local dog park. He was attacked by a terrier as we walked in. The dog grapped Joe by the neck and wouldn't let go. The owner was useless but another erson squirted water in his face and he let go. Thankfull not physical damage done but I did insist on gettting the name and phone# in case we needed a vet visit. I later found out the terrier had done this many times. I won't go back not worth it.

RangerUser is Offline
Wisconsin
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04/21/2008 8:23 AM  
I went to our local dog park one time and will never go again. So many dogs seemed so aggressive as they approached us all a-barking and in our face. Ranger didn't quite know what to think. I had him on the leash, and I now understand that can be a source of tension amongst dogs if some are on and some are off leash. In addition, I am still learning to be more comfortable with how dogs "play" as they can make me nervous with what is probably totally normal, non aggressive behavior. Still, I was turned off by the cavalier attitude of the owners all standing around visiting while their dogs are not under their control.

Luckily we have a great county park only 5 minutes from here. Dogs are supposed to be leashed but if we are in the woods off the beaten path Ranger goes free and has more fun in the woods than in the wide open, bare ground dog park. Most folks let their dogs off-lead and will quickly re-leash them as they approach others.

It is frustrating to have to deal with such people and I feel bad for your experience. Hopefully the guy won't be back soon.
wgspr rescueUser is Offline
Milwaukee, WI
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04/21/2008 9:20 AM  
I do not and will not use dog parks for pretty much your scenerio see n spots! I find quiet long stretchs of parkway in the city or leave the city to go dog running. I don't want my dogs hurt; it's bad enough taking all the chances bringing unknown rescues into my home, then to super expose my dogs in a dog park. That and well, I do not trust all dog owners to have vet work up to date...I don't need that exposure for my dogs either.

Lisa C. Rossman
WI GSP Rescue, Inc (wgspr.com)
"Until there are none, rescue just one!"
everbellUser is Offline
Kanata, ON
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04/21/2008 9:43 AM  
It's for just this reason I don't take Bo to our local dog park. I often get people saying to me "oh, you really should take Bo there." like we are doing something wrong by NOT taking him. He gets plenty of socailization on our walks/runs. He is more than happy to play with one or two dogs at a time off leash at a local park. I think he would be overwhelmed by the number of dogs at the dog park... plus, he thinks every dog is a friend. He doesn't always understand dogs that DON'T want to be HIS friend ...

Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures
krtennysonUser is Offline
Northern Virginia
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04/21/2008 9:55 AM  

Personally I do think dog parks are very useful and can be an important part of socializing a dog.  You can call the county animal control if there is an aggressive dog in the park and the owner won't control it.  I sometimes leave the park when there is an aggressive dog, but I have also recently seen a number of "good" dog owners form a consensus and ask someone to leave.  The two people with the wreckless dogs did leave immediately.  It seemed more effective than just one person confronting them.


Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one.

Genuine dialogue benefits everyone, getting on your soapbox is a waste of everyone's time.
see'n'spotsUser is Offline
north central Florida
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04/21/2008 11:22 AM  
There is a certain group dynamic at dog parks. In the "conflict" I described the PB owner was witnessed by everyone being aggressive to both me & his dog. Everyone else also saw me diplomatically ask him to intervene then calmly intervene myself. I WOULD like to think that experience will have lasting effect. Hopefully it would encourage others who've had his dog bully theirs to speak up & make this 'slacker' pay attention to his dog's bad habit.

I think debate is over about the utility of Dog Parks, over 99.999% of the encounters are pleasant, this includes virtually all PBs. However another point I was making was the 'common theme' among the problem dogs I have encountered over years of Dog Park visits. Just as GSPs tend to exhibit the trait of tireless runing, I've noticed PBs chasing & nipping other dogs. I did not want or expect the lazy misguided PB owner to leave the park. I expected him to observe his dog's unappreciated behavior & accede to my request-it was little enough to ask. The fact that he was not bright enough to understand my warning that Kal would only tolerate so much harassment was why I felt obligated to intercede. The last PB that followed that pattern had sincere, but overwelmed, owners who acknowledged the problem & got help from park regulars. Their PB was able to turn the corner, it was through the help of others. That liitle PB learned to obey me & stopped chasing Kal, although she still is excited to greet him.

I'd like to think we can work together & coexist with a wide range of dogs, purposes & situations. I reject rigid barriers that unfairly restrict freedom & exclude people. I'm not going to be run off or expect the Dog Police to run somebody else off & do not support these who seek to ban PBs. IMO the hypocrisy of the guy coming across the park to confront me, then tell me to 'Get out of his face' mirrors the zealotry we suffer from 'tethering laws'. IMO its Fair to seek an end to persistant harassment, thus it would be unfair to ban PBs but reasonable to expect them to not to nip at other dogs.

This county has a 'leash law'. I seriously doubt "I find quiet long stretchs of parkway in the city..... to go dog running." sounds legal. I would never, under any circumstances, allow Kal to run off leash in any "city". The law here is that dogs must be under control at all times. The Dog Parks are the exceptions to that rule. For people who don't have a pack of dogs at home, a DP provides an exceptional benefit to dogs-their chance to socialize. This is a major benefit for owners as well. Kal can run at home, but loves the DP, even though he spends only a little time w/dogs. The dogs love being among other dogs & remember their buddies. The benefits clearly outweigh the risks, especially if there's a DP located conveniently. My taxes have paid for parks forever, but I only use the DP.
krtennysonUser is Offline
Northern Virginia
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Posts:69


04/21/2008 12:17 PM  

Why post this thread as a question if you already have such strongly held positions, or is this just an opportunity to vent?


Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one.

Genuine dialogue benefits everyone, getting on your soapbox is a waste of everyone's time.
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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04/21/2008 12:39 PM  

I am not a big fan of dog parks for the obvious reasons described in this thread.  However, we do have a 3 mile hiking loop where dogs are allowed off leash.  My girls love it and if you go early enough you rarely meet other people on the trail. However, when we do encounter someone with dogs off leash I call both my dogs back to me and make them heal until we pass the other folks.  When the others see this they usually call their dogs back and everyone is happy.  Haven't had any problems at least on this hiking trail.

However, we did have a problem this weekend at our flyball training class. Halo, my 3 year old, is a happy go lucky girl and loves to play with dogs she knows.  One of the other dogs in the class is an Australian Shepherd.  She has been aggressive with other dogs, but never my girls until this weekend.  Halo got a little close to here (several feet away) playing with a ball and minding her own business when this Aussie went berzerk and grabbed Halo by the neck and wouldn't let go.  I quickly intervened and the owner called her dog off.  Thankfully no one was hurt.  The owner was very apologetic and made every effort to keep her dog in control.  Also, the instructors talked to the owner and were working with her on how to correct that type of behaviour as you obviously can't run an agressive dog in flyball.

Anyway, Halo got over the experience quicker than I did with the exception of she kept me between her and the dog for the rest of the class.

Now if that dog had tried that with Belle, my 4.5 year old GSP, I am sure Belle would have thrown that dog to the ground and held her down.  I have seen her do it with other agressive dogs.  She flips them and holds them down with her mouth until they straighten up.  Never bites, just holds them down.

I guess the moral of all this is you have to be ever vigilant of other dogs and owners in all situations, and if your dog is threatened do whatever you need to to protect your dog.  There are allot of owners that just don't establish themselves with their dogs and the result is often unfortunate for their dog and others.

Thankfully, Kal is ok from his most recent experience, and hopefuly the jerk of an owner of the other dog won't come back to the dog park. 

Bev and the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo)


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
Pointer FanUser is Offline
Westminster, Colorado
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04/21/2008 1:28 PM  
We have a very large dog park and for the most part the dogs there are very well socialized. The only hassle we have had was with a pit bull that nipped Molly. No damage--just surprised her. The owner was put on notice by the rest of the dog owners that he'd better keep his dog under control.

Molly also got a pretty good bite at the kennel-daycare that we used to use. She now goes to one that is better supervised.
Guitar1969User is Offline


Posts:8


04/21/2008 2:48 PM  

I am somewhat new to this - Have had a GSP rescue for 5 months now, and were excited when we recently(last 2 weeks)found out a local park of ours has a group of dog owners that meet every evening around 5pm.  Its not a dog park per se, but everyone is comfortable with letting their dogs play off leash.  My wife and I are very cautious because our GSP is very playful, but as you all know are one of the faster breeds and somewhat clumsy compared to other dogs.  Something that some other breed owners don't necessarily understand.  As the newbies to the group, we were very cautious of Bosco to make sure he got along with the other dogs.  My point is, I think it gets down to what someone else said - the owners need to be midful of the situation and respect others and their dogs.  If not, they shouldn't be there.  If Bosco didn't get along with the other dogs, we would not go there anymore.

Npping is a form of play, but it sounds like this other owner was immature, and obviously not very respectful of other people's feelings or property.

I would be curious what the other owners thought of the young owner - if they have had problems in the past with him. 

krtennysonUser is Offline
Northern Virginia
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Posts:69


04/21/2008 3:09 PM  
Nipping, particularly at the top of the neck, can be an expression of dominance and is NOT play. You can tell if this is the case if the dominant dog has tail up, ears forward, and is trying to place its head over the head/neck of the other dog. It may look like fun and games but it is how the pecking order is established. If the other dog does not accept the dominant behavior, a fight can ensue.

Nipping at the legs or body may be something else, I am less familiar with that scenario.

Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one.

Genuine dialogue benefits everyone, getting on your soapbox is a waste of everyone's time.
MegCUser is Offline
Ellensburg, WA
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Posts:989


04/21/2008 7:22 PM  
I don't mind my dogs 'bubble gumming' each others neck and legs gently with mutual agreement during wrestling-time as they are obviously enjoying it, but 'nipping' as described here IMO is rude behavior that easily boils over into something worse and needs to be stopped ASAP. The next step up is what my mushing friends call 'cheap-shotting', where the dog drills another on the run and skates away before any reprisal can be delivered. Kinda the same thing when a dog fangs a human in the back of the leg or foot and runs off.

The real issue with dog parks is that there are so many owners that don't realize this behavior is like kids yelling bad stuff at each other. If you can pounce on the behavior right then BEFORE it escalates its in every way preferable to dealing with dogs biting.

Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here!
see'n'spotsUser is Offline
north central Florida
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Posts:334


04/21/2008 11:27 PM  
Exactly 2X. Kal has limited interest in other dogs, he checks them all out happily, but plays w/few & not for long. He'd rather run than fight. Eventually persistant harrassment will bring out aggression.

krtennyson: "Nipping, particularly at the top of the neck, can be an expression of dominance and is NOT play. If the other dog does not accept the dominant behavior, a fight can ensue.

MegC: "I don't mind my dogs 'bubble gumming' each others neck and legs gently with mutual agreement during wrestling-time as they are obviously enjoying it, but 'nipping' as described here IMO is rude behavior that easily boils over into something worse and needs to be stopped ASAP."

Why ask "why"? To stimulate conversation on this topic. IMO our GSPs may share the dilemma of their obsession w/running inciting the chase reflex in other dogs. This is a common problem, Kal is frequently mobbed whenever he slows down enough for others to catch up. Some get nippy out of frustration & excitment. In the case of the PBs I've had trouble with, its a situation where my GSP wants only to run like the wind & the PB wants only to ambush & nip. This PB was able to knock Kal off his feet & I wasn't happy about the spectacular wipe outs caused by him being ambushed either. Again, if Kal had nipped his dog & knocked it down many times I'm pretty sure this owner would've been in my face even sooner. I'll bet if the shoe were on the other foot he wouldn't call it "play".

A Rottie nip tore Auzzie's ear badly, the car was a bloody mess, it was after hours so I tried 1st aid overnight, since I knew how to tape his ear back to bandage. The vet decided the damaged chunk of ear had to go. Auzzie spend the rest of his life with a big notch in 1 ear b/c of a single aggressive nip.
CodyboyUser is Offline
Ohio
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Posts:251


04/22/2008 4:46 AM  

The more I read on here about the dog parks, I am having second thoughts on taking Cody to check out the one they built not to far away. Sounds like they are rough places to visit.. Has anyone gone to one and have good stories to share?

Pointer FanUser is Offline
Westminster, Colorado
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04/22/2008 8:28 AM  
I love ours. It is huge with ponds and gullys and all kinds of things to explore. The vast majority of the owners using it are respectful and responsible and those that are not are soon set straight. We've only had one minor incident in 4 years.
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