caly1522
GA
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Posts:270
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| 03/01/2008 9:28 PM |
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| I agree with Moose. Taking the picture next to a darker dog could make the liver appear lighter. Also, it is very true that a dog can be bred and have puppies by different males. When we use to raise dogs it was a big issue since our Rat Terriers could scale a 6 foot fence. We had to put lids on the runs they were in to keep all the unwanted males out. That's also why with a stray female all the pups can look so different. |
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"To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." -Pre |
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Ace1cappuccino
Carp Lake, Michigan
MH
Posts:1618
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| 03/02/2008 10:09 AM |
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I know some breeders who actually do multiple sired litters. I couldn't imagine why as it would be a crap shoot. If you do see this pup and are interested in it, I would definately consider a dna test just to be sure. Unless you are going to have it fixed or are planning to show it. If he is an odd color he might be penalized? Or maybe just an odd gene somewhere? It would not affect hunting or being a companion but I would investigate a little further just to be safe.
When I got my sons lab from a lady with a mistake litter she said he was a lab. He looked like a lab. As he got older he got tan in his feet area, around his mouth and the tan butt patch of a rott. Plus his head is big as a basketball. I took him to the vet and she found out who the lady was and suprise the sire was a pure rottweiler. We loved the heck out of him so he's a baby but I was worried for a while. |
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Cornell's GSP'S- Mocha cappuccino, Lili Belle Lotte, Sir Leopold Vom Hunter 1, Lil Miss Lotte Doddi, Ace Hunter Twisted Mister(GSP'S)  
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MegC
Ellensburg, WA
MH
Posts:989
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| 03/02/2008 6:21 PM |
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Livers, blacks, and fawns all in one litter eh? If I were either the breeder or a buyer, I'd want DNA testing on each pup to confirm "WhozYoDaddy". I have no problem with crossbred pups per se, but if they're represented by the breeder as purebred and sold as purebred, there really should be proof if there's any reason to question.... and unless there's some black dogs up close in the pedigree, *I'd* sure be wondering what the heck was going on with that rainbow of flavors!
I knew a sibe breeder who had a bitch in heat get into at least 3 males about 5+ years ago. They did DNA testing on all the pups because they wanted to know what they had for sure. Turns out the litter was all sired by just one of their males, and it was a good nick that threw some nice pups... but I really respected their efforts to double check the paternity and that they wouldn't even register the litter until they knew for sure. |
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Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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Bedberg
Duluth, MN
MH
Posts:312
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| 03/02/2008 9:57 PM |
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| I've got the answer. It was the flash. I've seen all the pups today and there are 2 solid liver, I chose the male, the female, which was the one in the photo was taken at 1st pick. 2 solid blacks, 1 liver and white and 4 black and white. There were quite a few black and white in both dam and sire lines. I'll be posting pictures on a new thread. |
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Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 03/03/2008 6:04 AM |
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| So was one of the parents a solid and was one a black (or was one both?). |
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MegC
Ellensburg, WA
MH
Posts:989
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| 03/03/2008 8:57 AM |
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Posted By Bedberg on 03/02/2008 9:57 PM
I've got the answer. It was the flash. ....
LOL! Well at least you've got your answer, and with black up close there's probably not a neighborhood lab involved.  Enjoy your pup! |
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Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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Bedberg
Duluth, MN
MH
Posts:312
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| 03/04/2008 9:40 PM |
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So was one of the parents a solid and was one a black (or was one both?).
The mama is liver and white ticked and the father is black and white ticked. Why? should one be a solid? |
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Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.
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bravepoint
North Gower, ON Canada
MH
Posts:894
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| 03/05/2008 5:48 AM |
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Yes! You can't get a solid puppy unless at least 1 parent is solid. A liver ticked and black ticked mating can only produce liver and black ticked puppies. Here's a link that explains the outcome of all possible matings of coat colors with pictures even, http://www.dogstuff.info/mating_outcomes_gsp_byrne.html
Gail |
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Gail, Moka, Avery, Terra & Rayne
Bravepoint GSPs
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Bedberg
Duluth, MN
MH
Posts:312
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| 03/05/2008 6:06 AM |
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Hmm. I'll have to check out the link when I've got some extra time. There is a member on this site with puppies that are solids and the parents are not. Maybe he knows something that the author of your link doesn't.  |
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Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.
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bravepoint
North Gower, ON Canada
MH
Posts:894
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| 03/05/2008 6:34 AM |
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Really? I didn't know that....
As far as my understanding of genetics goes and the excerpts from Georgina Byrne's book, Der Deutsch Kurzhaar that I sent , it is impossible to get a solid from to ticked parents. If a dog carries the gene for solid coat coloration which is dominant to the gene ticked coloration, it has to be expressed i.e. the dog is a solid color. |
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Gail, Moka, Avery, Terra & Rayne
Bravepoint GSPs
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Bedberg
Duluth, MN
MH
Posts:312
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| 03/05/2008 1:22 PM |
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| Maybe a new thread should be started on the subject. I am not a breeder, just a GSP lover, so I really have no idea. I am not going to breed or show my new pup, but I would like to know (without insulting the breeder) what is up. |
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Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.
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bravepoint
North Gower, ON Canada
MH
Posts:894
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| 03/05/2008 2:12 PM |
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| Maybe print out the link I sent and ask the breeder to explain how they got solids from ticked parents. It's impossible! Something is definitely very strange...... |
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Gail, Moka, Avery, Terra & Rayne
Bravepoint GSPs
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4475
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| 03/05/2008 4:37 PM |
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I have a friend who had puppies out of a solid liver male and black/white ticked female. She had solid liver, solid black, black/white ticked and liver/white ticked.
Does this make sense?
I know the breeder and there was no hanky-panky going on.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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everbell
Kanata, ON
MH
Posts:3180
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| 03/05/2008 4:41 PM |
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Maybe there was more than 1 sire?
I took a look at that link and I started to get woozy ... my biology learning ended in Grade 9 at XX and XY. So maybe I missed the point?  |
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Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures |
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Jodi
Tampa, Florida
MH
Posts:296
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| 03/05/2008 4:54 PM |
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In Jackson's case his dad was solid and mom was white and liver ticked... so he fits what you are alol saying. The litter was about half and half. I do not know anything about breeding dogs.... so forgive my ignorance, but I thought with genetics in general you could pass on a trait that is farther down in the lines... for example if Jackson;s brother who was ticked had pups....I would guess it could be possible that he could have solids...because it is still in him somehow. I am interested in hearing more about what makes it impossible as I am finding this interesting and I am now glad this was not an issue with my pup and I would not have found that odd...and it will be helpful to know in the future when purchasing pups! I also am totally blown away that a femake can have two sires! crazy!! The things that I have learned from this forum! |
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Ace1cappuccino
Carp Lake, Michigan
MH
Posts:1618
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| 03/05/2008 7:38 PM |
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From what I understood from that book, a solid is a solid, liver or black it is still a solid. Solid liver to black and white, you will get solid liver, solid black, black and white, liver & white. That was my understanding. Not sure if that helps.
Gail, what about the white paw/ chest marks on the solids? I have seen solids without the white patch have solids with it? I like it but is that just an odd thing that shows up? I esp love the white toes on some. |
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Cornell's GSP'S- Mocha cappuccino, Lili Belle Lotte, Sir Leopold Vom Hunter 1, Lil Miss Lotte Doddi, Ace Hunter Twisted Mister(GSP'S)
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bravepoint
North Gower, ON Canada
MH
Posts:894
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| 03/05/2008 7:42 PM |
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Francine,
Yes, that makes perfect sense.
Maybe this genetics stuff comes easier to me as I have a science background and having been studying it as it relates to GSPs for many year. I'll try to clarify it as it relates to the litter bedberg is talking about.
First, each trait has 2 alleles, one coming from each parent.
B is the gene for color. Black is dominant to liver so a black dog would be either BB(both parents were black) or Bb (one parent was black and the other liver). A liver dog will always be bb, both parents carried the recessive liver gene.
S is the gene for solid. Solid is dominant to ticked so a solid dog would be either SS (both parents were solid) or Ss (one parent was solid and one was ticked). A ticked dog would be ss, both parents carried the recessive ticked gene.
In the litter bedberg is looking at the scenario should be:
Parents: heterozygous black ticked bred to liver ticked, Bbss to bbss
Resulting puppies can only be the following: heterozygous black ticked (Bbss) or liver ticked (bbss) . It should be about 1/2 of each coloring. 50% Bbss, 50% bbss
Since there are no solid genes, S, present in the parents there is absolutely no chance of producing a solid puppy.
I hope this makes sense. I'm not sure how else to say it....
Gail
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Gail, Moka, Avery, Terra & Rayne
Bravepoint GSPs
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Jodi
Tampa, Florida
MH
Posts:296
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| 03/05/2008 7:44 PM |
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From what I gathered... Jackson is still considered a solid as long as the white is only on the chest and feet and no where else on the body. He was the only solid in his litter to have white markings. The others were either full solid liver and then liver and white patches and ticking. Am I correct?
Gail thanks for clarifying the genetics end of things! |
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bravepoint
North Gower, ON Canada
MH
Posts:894
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| 03/05/2008 7:46 PM |
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Yes, Jackson is considered a solid liver.
Gail |
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Gail, Moka, Avery, Terra & Rayne
Bravepoint GSPs
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Ace1cappuccino
Carp Lake, Michigan
MH
Posts:1618
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| 03/05/2008 7:58 PM |
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| I was just wondering where the white comes from? |
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Cornell's GSP'S- Mocha cappuccino, Lili Belle Lotte, Sir Leopold Vom Hunter 1, Lil Miss Lotte Doddi, Ace Hunter Twisted Mister(GSP'S)
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