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Phillyo118User is Offline
UK
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01/17/2013 2:19 AM  

Good morning guys,

I promised Lucie that I would make a post about raw feeding as I've been giving my dogs raw for the last two months or so and I have noticed a difference in them.

First off I'll just say that I'm no professional, I'm not a vet nor do I claim to be specialised in dog nutrition. This information is purely based on what I have read and, more importantly, seen and experienced myself.

So what are the benefits of feeding raw? And what are the potential risks?

Some reported benefits are;

  • A shiner coat
  • Healthier teeth
  • Smaller stools
  • Higher, but more controlled energy levels
  • Less smelly breath
  • Lower vet bills due to better general health

Some reported risks;

  • Threat to humans and dogs from bacteria from uncooked food
  • Potential choking hazard with bones
  • Potential breaking of teeth on bones
  • Keeping a controlled balanced diet

Benefits.

From personal experience, from reading a very good book called "Give your dog a bone - Ian Billinghurst" and from common sense I have seen all of the benefits, and more. Plus non of the risks *touch wood*.

I know a lot of people, myself included, are/were worried about the potential health risks of feeding raw. Myths abound regarding dogs choking on chicken bones, getting sick with bacteria, namely salmonella, the pain of having to get it all sorted out, the costs involved. Hopefully I can clear some of this up for the people that are interested.

Firstly, the easiest one. Cost. I was feeding my two on Beta as it worked well for Bentley's coat, he used to get a lot of dry skin and have other issues likey itchy feet. I was paying around £36 per 15kg bag of dog food, which isn't the most expensive but not the cheapest either. If I was lucky they'd have an offer on of two bags for £50.

Based on the above amounts, that works out at either £2.40/kg or £1.66/kg when on offer.

Compare that to the raw food I give them. I buy TESCO value chicken portions, which are obviously made for human consumption so no "good enough for dogs" rubbish. They are 2kg bags of frozen chicken thighs and breasts, some drum sticks etc and for that 2kg bag it costs me £3.50. This works out at £1.75/kg. I mix in some cooked and minced vegetables and left overs from my plate, as long as it's healthy and not dangerous to the dogs (no chocolate, onions, raisins etc).

So to feed them on a raw diet, at the worst it is 10p/kg more expensive. At best it is 70p/kg CHEAPER than the dog food I was giving them.

There is no prep involved, other than opening a bag with a pair of scissors and dishing out the required amount. I will explain how much to give them in a minute. But that's all there is to it. I add a spoonfull of the vegetables or some tinned fish maybe, just for variety and to help give them a balanced diet.

It's easy to monitor too. If they are having loose stools, give them more bones. If they are struggling to go, give them more veg/fish/fruit etc. It's really that easy.

Bentley turned 3 in Oct 12 and Keira will be 2 in April this year. For those that have dogs around this age, or those that remember it they will know that, although they are beginning to calm down a LITTLE bit, they can still be pretty mental! I remember people on this forum talking about the "zoomies" where the GSP will suddenly just go a bit mental and tear about the place like a lunatic. Well as funny as that can be, it's also a little annoying after a while and probably not that healthy. I haven't seen any of that since I started feeding raw. Their energy levels are as high as before, but it's a more controlled, steady, constant energy. I suppose it's akin to feeding children lots of food with a lot of E numbers in it, they just go a bit hyper occasionally as opposed to giving them some nice porridge witch gives them a continual, sustained energy?

I have seen no flakey skin, no scratching (other than the basic scratch here and there, no incessant scratching) no licking at paws after walks or baths. Their fur coats are more shiney, and look a slightly darker shade than before too. Their eyes have a greater sparkle to them, which may sound strange but for those that know me and are friends with me on facebook you'll know that I'm quite into my photography. My pups faces and eyes are something I take pictues of quite often and I have noticed a marked difference.

One of the biggest differences, which I think everyone would approve of, is the size, frequency, consistency and smelliness of their stools. After the first week or two of them getting used to it, they now go to the toilet twice a day and the size is perhaps 3 or 4 little "pellets" the size of a squash ball or golf ball? That's it. They are normally firm and crumble if squeezed. If left in the garden for a few days due to me being too busy, they often just dissolve away to nothing. There is a less offensive smell to them too.

One thing to be aware of here. If you are changing from biscuits to raw feeding, you may find your dog being sick for the first week or two. By this I don't mean regurgitating food that has just been eaten, I mean food they had a few hours earlier. It's usually just a few bits of catilage or bone that their stomachs can't quite handle yet. This is because being on biscuits for a while, the pH of their stomach has dropped from 1 to closer to ours so they can't dissolve the bones as well. It doesn't last long before they are able to dissolve it all and you'll rarely see any sick. Just wanted to make you aware so that you don't worry about it. This is fairly common and goes away after a week or two.

Bentley was on dry biscuits for the first 3 years of his life so his teeth were just starting to get a little brown here and there and I was having to clean them which he didn't particularly enjoy. Chews and dentastix were "ok" but only went so far. Since being on raw his teeth are beginning to clean up nicely from scraping on the bones. Healthy teeth and healthy gums.

They also LOVE food time now. Whereas before it was nice to be fed, but never really that exciting unless they were really hungry or I was putting things on top to add to the taste.

Now to the potential hazards.

Bacteria. "Your dog’s saliva contains a different enzyme, known as lysozyme, which is important in killing any bacteria that may be present in whatever your dog chooses to eat. Humans, who generally cook their food before eating it, do not have this protective enzyme (www.doggies.com)."

It continues, "...Although both stomachs (human and canine) use acid to break down food, the dog’s stomach is much more acidic, carrying a pH of about 1, while a human stomach weighs in with a pH between 4 and 5. This is another protective enzyme that allows your dog to eat some really gross things and not get sick. His very acidic stomach kills most of the bacteria found in less-than-fresh roadkill and any other tasty tidbits he may find. The highly acidic environment is also more conducive to digesting bits of bone. (http://www.doggies.com/articles/134-your-dog-s-digestive-system.html#ixzz2IDoPNlnF)"

The above link explains a lot more than I need to post on here but as you can see, it's no more of a concern than worrying about your dog choking on a dog biscuit, or, heaven forbid, being hit by a truck if it got off leash etc. There are risks everywhere in life, some are greater than others. Bacteria aren't a high risk.

Onto choking on bones. Another myth about dogs choking on chicken bones is because some people decided that dogs should eat cooked meat like humans do. Well, cooking a bone makes it brittle and more liable to break and lodge in a dogs oesophagus. Raw food doesn't generally have this risk (see above disclaimer on risks). The dogs teeth break the bones in a relatively clean manner, more research on the web can explain this better.

Never, ever feed your dogs big weight bearing bones of large herbivore animals such as cows. They are far too dense for a dog to chew through and may end up breaking their teeth. By all means if you get one and there's plenty of meet on it let them chew on it to get the meat off it but once it has been picked clean, take it off them and bin it.

I have already touched on keeping a controlled balanced diet. I would HIGHLY suggest reading "Give your dog a bone" by Ian Billinghurst. You can get it from Amazon for less than £10 I believe.

Lastly, how much do I feed my dog? Well this is based upon how much your dog either weighs (fully grown) or is likely to weigh (puppy).

The recommended amount to feed your dog is 2-3% of your dog's desired body weight per day.

Bentley weighs 34kg so 3% of his body weight is ~1kg. He gets 500g per meal, one morning and one evening. Keira gets a little less as she only weighs 24kg.

Some foods you can give your dog;

  • Whole Eggs
  • Beef (any parts, except dense weight-bearing bones)
  • Liver (any species)
  • Kidney (any species)
  • Green tripe
  • Heart (any species)
  • Spleen (any species)
  • Sweetbreads (any species)
  • Lung (any species)
  • Whole rabbits (or parts)
  • Chicken (whole or parts)
  • Turkey (whole or parts)
  • Quail
  • Pheasant
  • Duck
  • Goose
  • Pork
  • Lamb
  • Goat
  • Deer
  • Elk
  • Bison
  • Pronghorn antelope
  • Ostrich
  • Kangaroo
  • Emu
  • Whole fish (avoid fresh salmon)
  • Canned fish (use sparingly)
  • Rats
  • Squirrels
  • Mice
  • Moose

In conclusion, I would highly advocate feeding raw for anyone that may be interested in it. I am available to answer questions if you have any.

Also, please remember I am from the UK so I have based the costs of feeding on UK prices and stores. Depending where in the world you live, the costs may be higher or lower. I do know of people on here that feed raw so if they feel they want to add anything or correct me on anything then please do so. As stated at the top, I'm no vet or specialist.

Thank you for reading, if you got this far, and sorry it was so long! 

Regards,

Phil, Bentley and Keira.


"From the dog's point of view, his master is an elongated and abnormally cunning dog."

"My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am."
mckee.lucieUser is Offline
Seattle, WA
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01/18/2013 7:06 PM  
Phil - thanks for the initiation of this point....and LOTs of info you shared :) I know we are all in different situations with our dogs diet and everyones dogs and health is also very unique...with that in mind, I'd love to hear anyone else's experiences too with raw food or freeze dried raw to that extend. I'm definitely not one to judge right or wrong and I think this forum has thus far in our 2 years on it had the utmost respect that it shows for one another. I understand it can be a touchy subject....and one that I must say I and my husband are not very educated on...therefore we'd like to learn more before we can either take the plunge to try this or not as it may not be for everyone.

I'd love to learn more as we're considering the alternatives to options outside of dry dog kibble for our dog Luna. What I'm most interested in learning is:
1. have you tried other kinds of food outside of kibble, particularly raw or freeze dried? And if so, what have you tried?
2. Any likes, dislikes to what is out there available as pre-packaged frozen raw or other types of food out there? I've seen a few brands here such as northwest natural frozen raw, natures instinct frozen raw, and a freeze dried brand called Honest Kitchen.
3. Did you have a particular goal when you decided to transition your dog to this food? And if so, how have they done?

Thanks!
SplatUser is Offline
Illinois (Northern)
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01/19/2013 6:50 AM  
I totally agree with it being the healthier way to go... we don't feed raw though... lots of things.. harder for my kids to help with the feedings, storage of the food would be our biggest especially since we camp so much... just no way to have enough room when camping.... however since I do believe in it we do feed it as bonus foods every now and then.... a raw boneless chicken breast, canned sardines, eggs ect.... Question on the eggs do you do shell too?

singltrakUser is Offline
Las Cruces, NM
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01/19/2013 7:40 AM  
Absolutely you can do the eggshells. Google Natural Eggshell Membrane and I guarantee you will be amazed at the benefits of NEM.

Phyllis and the Singltrak Furtribe

Look to the Past, Breed for the Future
pixie beeUser is Offline

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01/19/2013 8:30 AM  
Great thread.

With the price of a "good" food these days, raw seems more realistic at achieving a healthy,balanced,quality diet.

I can't believe some of the prices.
Esp when we realize that ALL kibble has been heated to the point of annilating anything nutrious and then fortified to replace it.



"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
SplatUser is Offline
Illinois (Northern)
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01/19/2013 8:33 AM  
I thought the shells would be fine cuz when I had birds you fed them the shell too...

demetre126User is Offline
Ontario, Canada
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Posts:37


01/19/2013 9:53 AM  
Thank you for all the information, I was actually researching this and am seriously considering it because I want my dog to have complete satisfaction after each meal like a carnivore should instead of giving our processed version with fillers added in.
mckee.lucieUser is Offline
Seattle, WA
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Posts:202


01/19/2013 12:26 PM  
for those of you that feed raw...do you buy pre-made frozen raw from your local store or do you create your own raw diet for your dogs? Also - what do you think of freeze dried as an option?
smatulewiczUser is Offline
Michigan
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01/19/2013 2:47 PM  

I have no experience to add, simply curious as well. Following this with interest.

smatulewiczUser is Offline
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01/19/2013 2:48 PM  
Curious too as to the weaning from kibble to raw...how long you weaned or if you did at all.
kpwleeUser is Offline
Raleigh, NC
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Posts:992


01/20/2013 6:03 PM  
If Bugsy wasn't allergic to all poultry he'd be raw fed. No hesitation.
Due to his needs and the fact he needs beef or lamb it truly is expensive. I've tried to source fresh deer and bought a whole goat once but it's just too hard to source regularly.
I have never fed raw fish and feel unsure of it. I have given him raw whole shrimp which he loves

It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/
Phillyo118User is Offline
UK
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Posts:681


01/21/2013 1:44 AM  
Lucie, I'm not sure about USA but in the UK I just go to the local supermarket and buy their "value" chicken breasts to form the base of their diet. I'd suggest looking around online at the various stores in your area to compare prices. As to weaning them, I just swapped them over straight away. As I said in my initial post, it takes a week or two for their stomach acids to get strong enough to dissolve it all but after that they're fine with it.

kpw, I'm super surprised to hear Bugsy is allergic to poultry!! May I ask how you found that out? And is it just the poultry or something in the poultry, like the protein? From what I've read on the internet, saying a dog is allergic to meat is kinda like saying a cow is allergic to grass? Not saying he isn't of course, it's just a big surprise :)

"From the dog's point of view, his master is an elongated and abnormally cunning dog."

"My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am."
kpwleeUser is Offline
Raleigh, NC
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01/21/2013 4:35 AM  
We found out about eggs first. I gave him some scrambled egg and in minutes he had hives down his back and had breathing issues. He was about 8 months old and the vet said it was a serious allergic reaction. At various points we tried chicken, turkey and duck. The first two were also instant hives the duck was a lesser reaction but still obvious.
All he needs is a small treat that might have egg in it and he'll have dandruff within minutes. Crazy stuff.

It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/
Phillyo118User is Offline
UK
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Posts:681


01/21/2013 5:38 AM  
Oh bless him :( big ol' softy.

"From the dog's point of view, his master is an elongated and abnormally cunning dog."

"My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am."
kpwleeUser is Offline
Raleigh, NC
MH
MH
Posts:992


01/21/2013 5:45 AM  
I just told him you called him soft - he wants a game of tug now! Keep in mind he's 7 1/2 stone :)

It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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Posts:7835


01/21/2013 8:41 AM  
Philly - My oldest girl, Belle, is allergic to beef. She does not ave an immediate reaction and can tolerate small amounts, UTI if she has beef on an ongoing basis she gets skin rashes and her eyes becoming mattery. If she continues the rashes get worse and then she ends up with skin infections. Her coat also gets thin and she is constantly itchy. She is ok with any other meat including venison and bison.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
PinarellomanUser is Offline


Posts:16


01/22/2013 6:50 PM  

After having two GSPs for the last 14.5 yrs and lsoing one recently, I thought I would add my thoughts.

I have fed our two dogs from puppy to 14.5 & 13yrs on cooked Kangaroo meat with vegetables & rice. Cooking oil is always added to the mix, as roo is very lean. The reason the meat was cooked was it was self harvested (tape worm) & also they would always vomit when they were fed it as pups.

We have a 14week old pup now and are feeding her a combination of chicken mince & roo in a ratio of 2/3 chicken 1/3 roo. We are also feeding her Pro plan dog food with her chicken/roo.

 

marislUser is Offline

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JH
Posts:33


01/24/2013 3:04 AM  
Our GSP will turn 9 months in a few days. We were feeding him raw from roughly 4.5 months to a couple of weeks ago. We definitely noticed the change in his coat appearance, overall smell, breath smell, and stool as we originally made the switch from kibble to raw. We fed him pre-packaged whole animal patties (whole animal meaning the bones were ground into the meat) from a pet food store. Our vet suggested we be cautious as she claims to have seen puppies with developmental problems due to unbalanced raw foods, typically low calcium, and the staff at the raw pet food store urged us to be careful too and mix up food sources, so we made sure to get the whole animal patties, plus switch between different meats such as chicken, beef, lamb, venison. The stuff I read online and what the food store staff said suggested that although chicken was the cheapest food source, it isn't ideal by itself, and ought to be complemented by other meats. We also occasionally added some veggies and fruit, although as far as I've read online, it should not be nutritionally very important for the dog. Other than the patties, our dog also ate raw bones, yogurt, and occasional egg and ground egg shells, and a multivitamin. Anyway, long story short, in the past month or two, we simply were not able to feed the dog as much food as necessary to maintain a healthy weight - we fed him way more than the "average" recommendation for a puppy suggests in terms of calories, he got 3+ pounds of pre-made patties a day, but the dog still looked awfully underweight. Dealing with pre-made patties and wanting to alternate between meat sources, the monthly bill was just too outrageous for us to consider feeding more. At the moment, we don't have time to investigate a home-made balanced diet which presumably would be cheaper, so we, with heavy hearts, switched back to premium kibble for now. Among the not-so-good changes, the dog is finally gaining some reasonable weight as we've increased his caloric intake.
Phillyo118User is Offline
UK
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Posts:681


01/24/2013 6:32 AM  
Definitely agree that changing meat is important, I use the chicken as the "base" meat and add to that whatever else I can get hold of. Mainly raw meaty bones from local butchers such as lamb and pork. It can get a bit more expensive if no one near you provides raw meat at a cheaper price, luckily I'm ok at the moment but if circumsances changed then I would of course go back to kibble...with, as you say, a very heavy heart.

The raw diet isn't for everyone that's for sure but it works for me and it works for my dogs so I'm sticking with it for now

"From the dog's point of view, his master is an elongated and abnormally cunning dog."

"My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am."
vnrose53User is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:379


01/24/2013 11:07 AM  

Just to stir the pot--by coincidence there was an article in the newspaper today about a recent study of the genetic differences between dogs and wolves.  It turns out that dogs are far better equipped genetically to digest and process starches and other carbs.  This could have happened in two ways:  wild canids with this genetic characteristic were selected for domestication because they could benefit from human food scraps and grain-based handouts, or dogs domesticated by hunter-gatherer humans developed an improved capacity to digest starches when their humans switched to agrain-based agrarian lifestyle.  Apparently humans also had to develop better capacities to process such foods as well!  

So there is evidence--EVIDENCE, not PROOF--that dogs are designed to eat starches and carbs and that this is a natural diet for them.

 

Me, I'm sticking with kibble. 

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