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| Author |
Messages |
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carlson
Posts:3
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| 11/03/2009 7:06 AM |
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Below is an e-mail I got from a friend with a
dog that has pointing problems. I've been trying to help him
with this for some time. My advice to this point has been to expose her to
wild birds only, keep his mouth shut, and don't shoot birds the dog doesn't
point. That does not seem to have worked, so I've suggested an idea I got
from Cj years ago. Any thoughts?
Dennis Carlson
From: Dennis
Bays
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:53 PM
To: Steve
Grieser; Dennis & Mary Carlson; Rick Sojda
Subject: Bella -
still not pointing - losing patience!
Just wondering if you have
any further thoughts on Bella. I just came back from two days in Eastern
WA on wild birds (quail and pheasant). She has no problem finding the
birds, but darned if I EVER saw anything that looked like a point. To
the contrary, I'm convinced that she just loves to flush them. On one
rooster, I saw her catch the scent, and run off into the heavy grass, bounding
high and looking around - it looked for all the world like she was looking to
see the bird fly. We saw 8 or 9 roosters yesterday - I shot at one that
I flushed - (and missed), but that was the only one within range. Plus,
I'm still trying NOT to shoot at anything she bumps or flushes and doesn't
point. It's getting VERY frustrating. I walked a LOT of miles in
the past two days, and brought home one solitary quail - again, from a covey
that I flushed when Bella was way off ahead of me flushing
roosters.
With Brenna in her prime, and
the number of birds we saw yesterday, I would have had no problem
limiting.
On quail, Bella seems to
be on a track, then suddenly flushes a covey. Once they start flying,
she just goes nuts, racing all around, bouncing and bounding - and doesn't
even seem to notice the singles. She DOES work very hard, and really
searches the cover well. She loves her work. If she'd only point,
I'd be very happy.
Earlier this year, when
hunting the local release site, she DID point a pair of hens, which I
shot. Since then, I've seen one other point (non-productive, we never
did find the bird), and that's it.
Is she EVER going to get
it? Is there anything I can do to reinforce the correct behavior beyond
what I'm doing now? I DO remember Brenna going a little crazy at times,
and forgetting to point when she got into lots of scent when she was young,
but she always pointed at times - more staunchly as she got
older.
Am I doomed to have a
non-pointing pointing dog?
Please give me some reason
for hope!
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Saturday, October
31, 2009 10:22 AM
Subject: RE: Bella - still
not pointing - losing patience!
Dennis,
You've done everything I
suggested and she still doesn't point. I'm a little embarrassed.
Bella is the first dog I know of who won't point after so much good
exposure. I've got some ideas but would like to forward your e-mail to a
professional versatile hunting dog trainer I know, trust, and respect.
Do I have your permission? He might give us a little free
advice. You might also look for a pro near you. I'll see what I
can find out about a local pro.
Meanwhile, you might
try this:
Find a source of pen
raised birds. Put one in a cage in the back of your pickup
with Bella in the front. It's better if you have a
trailer. Use the trailer and keep Bella in her crate the way
you normally travel. Don't let her see you get the bird or
know that it's back there. Place the bird in the cage out in
cover where Bella won't see it and don't let her see you walking out
there. You might need to use a dark cloth to cover your window, park so
she can't see, or whatever. Come back and put Bella on a check
cord. Make sure the wind is constantly coming from one general
direction. Take her upwind of where you walked previously and walk
upwind passed the caged bird. After you are well passed the
upwind side of the caged bird, turn 180 and head back about 30 yards
downwind of the area from the bird. You might need to get closer than
this depending on the wind and cover. As soon as she acknowledges scent,
stop her with the check cord. Pick her up and carry her back to that
spot if you need to. Don't say anything. Just go to her, stroke
her a little while, calm her down and tell her she's a good dog. When
she settles down, pick her up and carry her past the scent
towards the truck. Put her down and take her back to the truck on lead
but not at heel. Just use the check cord to keep her from going
back to the bird. When you get back to the truck, put her in
the cab with you and you read a magazine article, the news, or a
book for about twenty minutes to half an hour. Ignore her.
Let her calm down on her own. If she goes to sleep, that's
great. We want the experience to sink in without distractions. Go
back, let the bird go, and get your cage. We don't want the bird to
distract her on the way home or at home. Do this repeatedly with
two day breaks between sessions until she points on her own a couple
times. Then hunt her on wild birds. Don't shoot if she screws
up. If she screws up, you go back to the spot where she screwed
up. Wait for her to come back, don't say anything, put her on a
leash and just calmly hang out there a while until she settles
down. Continue this procedure until she will hold point long enough
for you to pass her and she allows you to flush the birds. If she runs
out ahead of you, don't shoot. Take her back where she took off and
hang out there again till she settles down.
Let me know if I can
forward your e-mail or a modification of it.
Dennis
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 11/03/2009 2:01 PM |
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| What breed of dog is this?
How old?
Does the owner use an e-collar?
Whether or not, does the dog know and understand the meaning of the verbal
command "whoa?"
Does the owner own or have access to remote launchers or releasers?
How about live birds for training purposes? Pigeons? others?
Just how much wild bird exposure has the dog really had - a few days of a few
contacts a day or several to many weeks?
Does the dog work birds with head up or on the ground?
It certainly sounds to me as though she might be ready for and require a more
formal and structured approach to learning her manners. The owner has seen some
points but the dogs just hasn't yet given up on chasing. I may post something
specific or provide some links after these questions are answered - if no one else
does (Maurice?)
PS, with due deference to the dear departed - I'm not a fan of "stop at first
scent." Indeed we "went at it" over that once or twice on this list. Rather I
adhere to the proposition that one gets better overall birdwork from the dog by
stopping it AFTER it has purposely flushed birds it has located and failed to point
and training a solid "stop to wild flush" response. In addition, it is easier to
refresh the dog's memory should lapses occur in the future after a "stop to flush"
basis has been established.
I just went through such a refresher course with my older (9 1/2) pointing Labrador
after it saw few birds for two seasons. It wasn't very quick (The dog is not a
traditional pointing breed, is overly endowed with "prey drive" and rather
excitable - sound like this Bella??) but the method worked effectively
(eventually).
Come on Torsti - say something about "nerve stability" or whatever term you Swedes
would use to describe these dogs....
Jere
> Below is an e-mail I got from a friend with a dog that has pointing
> problems. I've been trying to help him with this for some time. My advice
> to this point has been to expose her to wild birds only, keep his mouth
> shut, and don't shoot birds the dog doesn't point. That does not seem to
> have worked, so I've suggested an idea I got from Cj years ago. Any
> thoughts?
>
> Dennis Carlson
> _____
>
> From: Dennis Bays
> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:53 PM
> To: Steve Grieser; Dennis & Mary Carlson; Rick Sojda
> Subject: Bella - still not pointing - losing patience!
>
> Dennis, Rick, Steve,
>
> Just wondering if you have any further thoughts on Bella. I just came back
> from two days in Eastern WA on wild birds (quail and pheasant). She has no
> problem finding the birds, but darned if I EVER saw anything that looked
> like a point. To the contrary, I'm convinced that she just loves to flush
> them. On one rooster, I saw her catch the scent, and run off into the heavy
> grass, bounding high and looking around - it looked for all the world like
> she was looking to see the bird fly. We saw 8 or 9 roosters yesterday - I
> shot at one that I flushed - (and missed), but that was the only one within
> range. Plus, I'm still trying NOT to shoot at anything she bumps or flushes
> and doesn't point. It's getting VERY frustrating. I walked a LOT of miles
> in the past two days, and brought home one solitary quail - again, from a
> covey that I flushed when Bella was way off ahead of me flushing roosters.
>
> With Brenna in her prime, and the number of birds we saw yesterday, I would
> have had no problem limiting.
>
> On quail, Bella seems to be on a track, then suddenly flushes a covey. Once
> they start flying, she just goes nuts, racing all around, bouncing and
> bounding - and doesn't even seem to notice the singles. She DOES work very
> hard, and really searches the cover well. She loves her work. If she'd
> only point, I'd be very happy.
>
> Earlier this year, when hunting the local release site, she DID point a pair
> of hens, which I shot. Since then, I've seen one other point
> (non-productive, we never did find the bird), and that's it.
>
> Is she EVER going to get it? Is there anything I can do to reinforce the
> correct behavior beyond what I'm doing now? I DO remember Brenna going a
> little crazy at times, and forgetting to point when she got into lots of
> scent when she was young, but she always pointed at times - more staunchly
> as she got older.
>
> Am I doomed to have a non-pointing pointing dog?
>
> Please give me some reason for hope!
>
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Dennis and Mary
>
> To: 'Dennis Bays'
>
> Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 10:22 AM
>
> Subject: RE: Bella - still not pointing - losing patience!
>
> Dennis,
>
> You've done everything I suggested and she still doesn't point. I'm a
> little embarrassed. Bella is the first dog I know of who won't point after
> so much good exposure. I've got some ideas but would like to forward your
> e-mail to a professional versatile hunting dog trainer I know, trust, and
> respect. Do I have your permission? He might give us a little free advice.
> You might also look for a pro near you. I'll see what I can find out about
> a local pro.
>
> Meanwhile, you might try this:
>
> Find a source of pen raised birds. Put one in a cage in the back of your
> pickup with Bella in the front. It's better if you have a trailer. Use the
> trailer and keep Bella in her crate the way you normally travel. Don't let
> her see you get the bird or know that it's back there. Place the bird in
> the cage out in cover where Bella won't see it and don't let her see you
> walking out there. You might need to use a dark cloth to cover your window,
> park so she can't see, or whatever. Come back and put Bella on a check
> cord. Make sure the wind is constantly coming from one general direction.
> Take her upwind of where you walked previously and walk upwind passed the
> caged bird. After you are well passed the upwind side of the caged bird,
> turn 180 and head back about 30 yards downwind of the area from the bird.
> You might need to get closer than this depending on the wind and cover. As
> soon as she acknowledges scent, stop her with the check cord. Pick her up
> and carry her back to that spot if you need to. Don't say anything. Just
> go to her, stroke her a little while, calm her down and tell her she's a
> good dog. When she settles down, pick her up and carry her past the scent
> towards the truck. Put her down and take her back to the truck on lead but
> not at heel. Just use the check cord to keep her from going back to the
> bird. When you get back to the truck, put her in the cab with you and you
> read a magazine article, the news, or a book for about twenty minutes to
> half an hour. Ignore her. Let her calm down on her own. If she goes to
> sleep, that's great. We want the experience to sink in without
> distractions. Go back, let the bird go, and get your cage. We don't want
> the bird to distract her on the way home or at home. Do this repeatedly
> with two day breaks between sessions until she points on her own a couple
> times. Then hunt her on wild birds. Don't shoot if she screws up. If she
> screws up, you go back to the spot where she screwed up. Wait for her to
> come back, don't say anything, put her on a leash and just calmly hang out
> there a while until she settles down. Continue this procedure until she
> will hold point long enough for you to pass her and she allows you to flush
> the birds. If she runs out ahead of you, don't shoot. Take her back where
> she took off and hang out there again till she settles down.
>
> Let me know if I can forward your e-mail or a modification of it.
>
> Dennis
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 11/04/2009 1:58 AM |
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>>Come on Torsti - say something about "nerve stability"
or whatever term you Swedes
would use to describe these
dogs....
Jere>>
Yes, I will!
I just came home from work, hopefully for the last time since
I have started the process to get an early retirement.
Our dear Briz passed away last week at the Upsala veterinary
hospital. An autopsy shows that she had tumours in her lungs. It all happened
very fast, from when we started to suspect that something was wrong until they
had to put her to sleep it only took maybe 4 weeks.
Briz was a "non pointing" pointing dog to start with. We
had already given up the idea to ever get her into order when she suddenly, at
the age of around 5 years, started to develop in the right direction. Once that
happened she never looked back. She got field trial awards and was invited to
commercial shoots. In the end some of the richest people in Finland and Sweden
(and a few other European countries) shot over her.
So there was a lesson to be learned for us. I shall write
about her, and discuss her development, for our website any day now, just
give a day or two to rest and collect my thoughts. We miss Briz a lot. She
was 9 years old and old dogs are always best in all ways. During her lifetime I
gave her a lot of nicknames, like "Calamity Briz". During the last years I
called her "PH" = "professional hunter" and that was not without reason.
Yes, I shall write a long story about Briz and her
development. There are many lessons to be learned from Briz.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
www.rospigan.net
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
he will
not bite you; that is the principal difference
between a dog and a man."
/Mark Twain
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soniaskinner1
SH
Posts:44
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| 11/04/2009 3:04 AM |
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Re: [working-gundog] Pointing problem
Torsti and Maud,
I am so very sorry to read the news that Briz had died, it was a real shock. As you may remember, my GSP was born the same day as Briz and I have followed Briz’s exploits in your emails and website and felt I knew her, so I feel a real loss at her going.
My sympathy to you both,
Sonia
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farmd69
JH
Posts:27
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| 11/04/2009 10:57 AM |
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My condolences.
From: rospigan@brevet.nu
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Pointing problem
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:43:44 +0100
>>Come on Torsti - say something about "nerve stability"
or whatever term you Swedes
would use to describe these
dogs....
Jere>>
Yes, I will!
I just came home from work, hopefully for the last time since
I have started the process to get an early retirement.
Our dear Briz passed away last week at the Upsala veterinary
hospital. An autopsy shows that she had tumours in her lungs. It all happened
very fast, from when we started to suspect that something was wrong until they
had to put her to sleep it only took maybe 4 weeks.
Briz was a "non pointing" pointing dog to start with. We
had already given up the idea to ever get her into order when she suddenly, at
the age of around 5 years, started to develop in the right direction. Once that
happened she never looked back. She got field trial awards and was invited to
commercial shoots. In the end some of the richest people in Finland and Sweden
(and a few other European countries) shot over her.
So there was a lesson to be learned for us. I shall write
about her, and discuss her development, for our website any day now, just
give a day or two to rest and collect my thoughts. We miss Briz a lot. She
was 9 years old and old dogs are always best in all ways. During her lifetime I
gave her a lot of nicknames, like "Calamity Briz". During the last years I
called her "PH" = "professional hunter" and that was not without reason.
Yes, I shall write a long story about Briz and her
development. There are many lessons to be learned from Briz.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
www.rospigan.net
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
he will
not bite you; that is the principal difference
between a dog and a man."
/Mark Twain
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tc
MH
Posts:117
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| 11/04/2009 11:07 AM |
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Sorry to hear about your Briz Torsti. I so fondly
remember all of the updates on her over the years and reading abour her
progress. Justs goes to show you what
"faith" in a dog and determination from
an owner/trainer can achieve.
Terry
Terry and Janet Chandler
Rugerheim Kennels
German Shorthaired Pointers
Training/Puppies/Stud
Service
Las Cruces, NM
575-382-5231
rugerheim.com
>> Our dear Briz passed away last week
at the Upsala veterinary hospital. An autopsy shows that she had tumours in her
lungs. It all happened very fast, from when we started to suspect that something
was wrong until they had to put her to sleep it only took maybe 4
weeks. << Torsti
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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 11/04/2009 11:20 AM |
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| my condolences also, torsti.
Stu & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715)639-3900 h&w (715)307-7804 c
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Ted Stucka wrote:
> My condolences.
>
> From: rospigan@brevet.nu
> To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
> Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Pointing problem
> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:43:44 +0100
>
> >>Come on Torsti - say something about "nerve stability" or whatever
> term you Swedes
> would use to describe these dogs....
>
> Jere>>
>
> Yes, I will!
>
> I just came home from work, hopefully for the last time since I have
> started the process to get an early retirement.
>
> Our dear Briz passed away last week at the Upsala veterinary hospital.
> An autopsy shows that she had tumours in her lungs. It all happened
> very fast, from when we started to suspect that something was wrong
> until they had to put her to sleep it only took maybe 4 weeks.
>
> Briz was a "non pointing" pointing dog to start with. We had already
> given up the idea to ever get her into order when she suddenly, at the
> age of around 5 years, started to develop in the right direction. Once
> that happened she never looked back. She got field trial awards and
> was invited to commercial shoots. In the end some of the richest
> people in Finland and Sweden (and a few other European countries) shot
> over her.
>
> So there was a lesson to be learned for us. I shall write about her,
> and discuss her development, for our website any day now, just give a
> day or two to rest and collect my thoughts. We miss Briz a lot. She
> was 9 years old and old dogs are always best in all ways. During her
> lifetime I gave her a lot of nicknames, like "Calamity Briz". During
> the last years I called her "PH" = "professional hunter" and that was
> not without reason.
>
> Yes, I shall write a long story about Briz and her development. There
> are many lessons to be learned from Briz.
>
> Torsti
> Borta Med Vindens Kennel
> www.rospigan.net
> "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
> he will not bite you; that is the principal difference
> between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
>
>
> |
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mcotton
MH
Posts:87
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| 11/05/2009 12:14 AM |
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I am very sorry to hear about Briz passing. 9
years isn't that old, a shame she went early. I hope you two can sit and
tell tales with your close friends about all the things Briz did that were both
so wonderfull and so funny.
Margaret
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 9:43
PM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Pointing
problem
>>Come on Torsti - say something about "nerve
stability" or whatever term you Swedes
would use to describe these
dogs....
Jere>>
Yes, I will!
I just came home from work, hopefully for the last time
since I have started the process to get an early retirement.
Our dear Briz passed away last week at the Upsala veterinary
hospital. An autopsy shows that she had tumours in her lungs. It all happened
very fast, from when we started to suspect that something was wrong until they
had to put her to sleep it only took maybe 4 weeks.
Briz was a "non pointing" pointing dog to start with.
We had already given up the idea to ever get her into order when she suddenly,
at the age of around 5 years, started to develop in the right direction. Once
that happened she never looked back. She got field trial awards and was
invited to commercial shoots. In the end some of the richest people in Finland
and Sweden (and a few other European countries) shot over her.
So there was a lesson to be learned for us. I shall write
about her, and discuss her development, for our website any day now, just
give a day or two to rest and collect my thoughts. We miss Briz a lot.
She was 9 years old and old dogs are always best in all ways. During her
lifetime I gave her a lot of nicknames, like "Calamity Briz". During the last
years I called her "PH" = "professional hunter" and that was not without
reason.
Yes, I shall write a long story about Briz and her
development. There are many lessons to be learned from Briz.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
www.rospigan.net
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
he
will not bite you; that is the principal difference
between a dog and a
man." /Mark Twain
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carlson
Posts:3
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| 11/05/2009 7:45 AM |
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| Jere,
Thanks for your advice.
The dog is a Griffon in her second hunting season. The owner does not have
an e-collar, launcher, or birds, and the dog has not been trained to whoa
with distractions. She's had quite a bit of exposure. I've not hunted with
her but I have judged her at our breed club tests. She did not point at the
tests. Sometimes dogs will not point traumatized penned birds but will
point clean wild birds. Most of our dogs hunt with their heads both up and
down.
We where trying to get by with just hunting wild birds and not shooting
unless the dog handles the birds properly. This technique has worked well
on all my dogs and most others that I know of, but apparently not with this
one. So we are looking for another way.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: working-gundog-request@web.whc.net
[mailto:working-gundog-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Jere Murray
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:45 PM
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Pointing problem
What breed of dog is this?
How old?
Does the owner use an e-collar?
Whether or not, does the dog know and understand the meaning of the
verbal
command "whoa?"
Does the owner own or have access to remote launchers or releasers?
How about live birds for training purposes? Pigeons? others?
Just how much wild bird exposure has the dog really had - a few days of a
few contacts a day or several to many weeks?
Does the dog work birds with head up or on the ground?
It certainly sounds to me as though she might be ready for and require a
more formal and structured approach to learning her manners. The owner has
seen some points but the dogs just hasn't yet given up on chasing. I may
post something specific or provide some links after these questions are
answered - if no one else does (Maurice?)
PS, with due deference to the dear departed - I'm not a fan of "stop at
first scent." Indeed we "went at it" over that once or twice on this list.
Rather I adhere to the proposition that one gets better overall birdwork
from the dog by stopping it AFTER it has purposely flushed birds it has
located and failed to point and training a solid "stop to wild flush"
response. In addition, it is easier to refresh the dog's memory should
lapses occur in the future after a "stop to flush"
basis has been established.
I just went through such a refresher course with my older (9 1/2) pointing
Labrador after it saw few birds for two seasons. It wasn't very quick (The
dog is not a traditional pointing breed, is overly endowed with "prey drive"
and rather excitable - sound like this Bella??) but the method worked
effectively (eventually).
Come on Torsti - say something about "nerve stability" or whatever term you
Swedes would use to describe these dogs....
Jere
> Below is an e-mail I got from a friend with a dog that has pointing
> problems. I've been trying to help him with this for some time. My
> advice to this point has been to expose her to wild birds only, keep
> his mouth shut, and don't shoot birds the dog doesn't point. That
> does not seem to have worked, so I've suggested an idea I got from Cj
> years ago. Any thoughts?
>
> Dennis Carlson
> _____
>
> From: Dennis Bays
> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:53 PM
> To: Steve Grieser; Dennis & Mary Carlson; Rick Sojda
> Subject: Bella - still not pointing - losing patience!
>
> Dennis, Rick, Steve,
>
> Just wondering if you have any further thoughts on Bella. I just came
> back from two days in Eastern WA on wild birds (quail and pheasant).
> She has no problem finding the birds, but darned if I EVER saw
> anything that looked like a point. To the contrary, I'm convinced
> that she just loves to flush them. On one rooster, I saw her catch
> the scent, and run off into the heavy grass, bounding high and looking
> around - it looked for all the world like she was looking to see the
> bird fly. We saw 8 or 9 roosters yesterday - I shot at one that I
> flushed - (and missed), but that was the only one within range. Plus,
> I'm still trying NOT to shoot at anything she bumps or flushes and
> doesn't point. It's getting VERY frustrating. I walked a LOT of
> miles in the past two days, and brought home one solitary quail - again,
from a covey that I flushed when Bella was way off ahead of me flushing
roosters.
>
> With Brenna in her prime, and the number of birds we saw yesterday, I
> would have had no problem limiting.
>
> On quail, Bella seems to be on a track, then suddenly flushes a covey.
> Once they start flying, she just goes nuts, racing all around,
> bouncing and bounding - and doesn't even seem to notice the singles.
> She DOES work very hard, and really searches the cover well. She
> loves her work. If she'd only point, I'd be very happy.
>
> Earlier this year, when hunting the local release site, she DID point
> a pair of hens, which I shot. Since then, I've seen one other point
> (non-productive, we never did find the bird), and that's it.
>
> Is she EVER going to get it? Is there anything I can do to reinforce
> the correct behavior beyond what I'm doing now? I DO remember Brenna
> going a little crazy at times, and forgetting to point when she got
> into lots of scent when she was young, but she always pointed at times
> - more staunchly as she got older.
>
> Am I doomed to have a non-pointing pointing dog?
>
> Please give me some reason for hope!
>
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Dennis and Mary
>
> To: 'Dennis Bays'
>
> Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 10:22 AM
>
> Subject: RE: Bella - still not pointing - losing patience!
>
> Dennis,
>
> You've done everything I suggested and she still doesn't point. I'm a
> little embarrassed. Bella is the first dog I know of who won't point
> after so much good exposure. I've got some ideas but would like to
> forward your e-mail to a professional versatile hunting dog trainer I
> know, trust, and respect. Do I have your permission? He might give us a
little free advice.
> You might also look for a pro near you. I'll see what I can find out
> about a local pro.
>
> Meanwhile, you might try this:
>
> Find a source of pen raised birds. Put one in a cage in the back of
> your pickup with Bella in the front. It's better if you have a
> trailer. Use the trailer and keep Bella in her crate the way you
> normally travel. Don't let her see you get the bird or know that it's
> back there. Place the bird in the cage out in cover where Bella won't
> see it and don't let her see you walking out there. You might need to
> use a dark cloth to cover your window, park so she can't see, or
> whatever. Come back and put Bella on a check cord. Make sure the wind is
constantly coming from one general direction.
> Take her upwind of where you walked previously and walk upwind passed
> the caged bird. After you are well passed the upwind side of the
> caged bird, turn 180 and head back about 30 yards downwind of the area
from the bird.
> You might need to get closer than this depending on the wind and
> cover. As soon as she acknowledges scent, stop her with the check
> cord. Pick her up and carry her back to that spot if you need to.
> Don't say anything. Just go to her, stroke her a little while, calm
> her down and tell her she's a good dog. When she settles down, pick
> her up and carry her past the scent towards the truck. Put her down
> and take her back to the truck on lead but not at heel. Just use the
> check cord to keep her from going back to the bird. When you get back
> to the truck, put her in the cab with you and you read a magazine
> article, the news, or a book for about twenty minutes to half an hour.
> Ignore her. Let her calm down on her own. If she goes to sleep,
> that's great. We want the experience to sink in without distractions.
> Go back, let the bird go, and get your cage. We don't want the bird
> to distract her on the way home or at home. Do this repeatedly with
> two day breaks between sessions until she points on her own a couple
> times. Then hunt her on wild birds. Don't shoot if she screws up.
> If she screws up, you go back to the spot where she screwed up. Wait
> for her to come back, don't say anything, put her on a leash and just
> calmly hang out there a while until she settles down. Continue this
> procedure until she will hold point long enough for you to pass her
> and she allows you to flush the birds. If she runs out ahead of you,
don't shoot. Take her back where she took off and hang out there again till
she settles down.
>
> Let me know if I can forward your e-mail or a modification of it.
>
> Dennis
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craig
JH
Posts:27
|
| 11/05/2009 8:22 AM |
|
I'm sure others will contribute their advice and wisdom, but my thought at this point is to use the most valuable tool in any pointing dog trainers tool box: patience.
I know you figure the dog has been given lots of time, but think about it. This is only her second hunting season. Granted, many (most) dogs should have a light go on by now, but it is not unheard of for a dog to take three or even more seasons to get it. My Pont Audemer Spaniel did exactly what the young griff you describe is doing. Bird scent for her was no reason to stop and point, it was a signal to speed up and flush!
I tried a number of techniques to "fix" the problem..whoa, pigeons, check cords etc. etc. but at the end of the day, I really believe that nothing I did really made any difference. She began pointing on her own...on wild birds in her third season. In her fourth season she began to back...again, mainly on her own. She is now a reliable pointer and backer. Looking back, I believe that I would have had the exact same result with her if I had done no whoa work, check cord work, pigeon work and just let her hunt. Of course I will never know, but that is my gut feeling. I'm just glad I did not screw her up with all my fumbling attempts at "training" her to point.
Anyway, just my two pennies... but remember, they're canadian so they are not worth much nowadays.
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Dennis and Mary <carlson@gorge.net> wrote:
Jere,
Thanks for your advice.
The dog is a Griffon in her second hunting season. The owner does not have
an e-collar, launcher, or birds, and the dog has not been trained to whoa
with distractions. She's had quite a bit of exposure. I've not hunted with
her but I have judged her at our breed club tests. She did not point at the
tests. Sometimes dogs will not point traumatized penned birds but will
point clean wild birds. Most of our dogs hunt with their heads both up and
down.
We where trying to get by with just hunting wild birds and not shooting
unless the dog handles the birds properly. This technique has worked well
on all my dogs and most others that I know of, but apparently not with this
one. So we are looking for another way.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: working-gundog-request@web.whc.net
[mailto:working-gundog-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Jere Murray
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:45 PM
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Pointing problem
What breed of dog is this?
How old?
Does the owner use an e-collar?
Whether or not, does the dog know and understand the meaning of the
verbal
command "whoa?"
Does the owner own or have access to remote launchers or releasers?
How about live birds for training purposes? Pigeons? others?
Just how much wild bird exposure has the dog really had - a few days of a
few contacts a day or several to many weeks?
Does the dog work birds with head up or on the ground?
It certainly sounds to me as though she might be ready for and require a
more formal and structured approach to learning her manners. The owner has
seen some points but the dogs just hasn't yet given up on chasing. I may
post something specific or provide some links after these questions are
answered - if no one else does (Maurice?)
PS, with due deference to the dear departed - I'm not a fan of "stop at
first scent." Indeed we "went at it" over that once or twice on this list.
Rather I adhere to the proposition that one gets better overall birdwork
from the dog by stopping it AFTER it has purposely flushed birds it has
located and failed to point and training a solid "stop to wild flush"
response. In addition, it is easier to refresh the dog's memory should
lapses occur in the future after a "stop to flush"
basis has been established.
I just went through such a refresher course with my older (9 1/2) pointing
Labrador after it saw few birds for two seasons. It wasn't very quick (The
dog is not a traditional pointing breed, is overly endowed with "prey drive"
and rather excitable - sound like this Bella??) but the method worked
effectively (eventually).
Come on Torsti - say something about "nerve stability" or whatever term you
Swedes would use to describe these dogs....
Jere
> Below is an e-mail I got from a friend with a dog that has pointing
> problems. I've been trying to help him with this for some time. My
> advice to this point has been to expose her to wild birds only, keep
> his mouth shut, and don't shoot birds the dog doesn't point. That
> does not seem to have worked, so I've suggested an idea I got from Cj
> years ago. Any thoughts?
>
> Dennis Carlson
> _____
>
> From: Dennis Bays
> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:53 PM
> To: Steve Grieser; Dennis & Mary Carlson; Rick Sojda
> Subject: Bella - still not pointing - losing patience!
>
> Dennis, Rick, Steve,
>
> Just wondering if you have any further thoughts on Bella. I just came
> back from two days in Eastern WA on wild birds (quail and pheasant).
> She has no problem finding the birds, but darned if I EVER saw
> anything that looked like a point. To the contrary, I'm convinced
> that she just loves to flush them. On one rooster, I saw her catch
> the scent, and run off into the heavy grass, bounding high and looking
> around - it looked for all the world like she was looking to see the
> bird fly. We saw 8 or 9 roosters yesterday - I shot at one that I
> flushed - (and missed), but that was the only one within range. Plus,
> I'm still trying NOT to shoot at anything she bumps or flushes and
> doesn't point. It's getting VERY frustrating. I walked a LOT of
> miles in the past two days, and brought home one solitary quail - again,
from a covey that I flushed when Bella was way off ahead of me flushing
roosters.
>
> With Brenna in her prime, and the number of birds we saw yesterday, I
> would have had no problem limiting.
>
> On quail, Bella seems to be on a track, then suddenly flushes a covey.
> Once they start flying, she just goes nuts, racing all around,
> bouncing and bounding - and doesn't even seem to notice the singles.
> She DOES work very hard, and really searches the cover well. She
> loves her work. If she'd only point, I'd be very happy.
>
> Earlier this year, when hunting the local release site, she DID point
> a pair of hens, which I shot. Since then, I've seen one other point
> (non-productive, we never did find the bird), and that's it.
>
> Is she EVER going to get it? Is there anything I can do to reinforce
> the correct behavior beyond what I'm doing now? I DO remember Brenna
> going a little crazy at times, and forgetting to point when she got
> into lots of scent when she was young, but she always pointed at times
> - more staunchly as she got older.
>
> Am I doomed to have a non-pointing pointing dog?
>
> Please give me some reason for hope!
>
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Dennis and Mary carlson@gorge.net>
>
> To: 'Dennis Bays' drbmac@comcast.net>
>
> Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 10:22 AM
>
> Subject: RE: Bella - still not pointing - losing patience!
>
> Dennis,
>
> You've done everything I suggested and she still doesn't point. I'm a
> little embarrassed. Bella is the first dog I know of who won't point
> after so much good exposure. I've got some ideas but would like to
> forward your e-mail to a professional versatile hunting dog trainer I
> know, trust, and respect. Do I have your permission? He might give us a
little free advice.
> You might also look for a pro near you. I'll see what I can find out
> about a local pro.
>
> Meanwhile, you might try this:
>
> Find a source of pen raised birds. Put one in a cage in the back of
> your pickup with Bella in the front. It's better if you have a
> trailer. Use the trailer and keep Bella in her crate the way you
> normally travel. Don't let her see you get the bird or know that it's
> back there. Place the bird in the cage out in cover where Bella won't
> see it and don't let her see you walking out there. You might need to
> use a dark cloth to cover your window, park so she can't see, or
> whatever. Come back and put Bella on a check cord. Make sure the wind is
constantly coming from one general direction.
> Take her upwind of where you walked previously and walk upwind passed
> the caged bird. After you are well passed the upwind side of the
> caged bird, turn 180 and head back about 30 yards downwind of the area
from the bird.
> You might need to get closer than this depending on the wind and
> cover. As soon as she acknowledges scent, stop her with the check
> cord. Pick her up and carry her back to that spot if you need to.
> Don't say anything. Just go to her, stroke her a little while, calm
> her down and tell her she's a good dog. When she settles down, pick
> her up and carry her past the scent towards the truck. Put her down
> and take her back to the truck on lead but not at heel. Just use the
> check cord to keep her from going back to the bird. When you get back
> to the truck, put her in the cab with you and you read a magazine
> article, the news, or a book for about twenty minutes to half an hour.
> Ignore her. Let her calm down on her own. If she goes to sleep,
> that's great. We want the experience to sink in without distractions.
> Go back, let the bird go, and get your cage. We don't want the bird
> to distract her on the way home or at home. Do this repeatedly with
> two day breaks between sessions until she points on her own a couple
> times. Then hunt her on wild birds. Don't shoot if she screws up.
> If she screws up, you go back to the spot where she screwed up. Wait
> for her to come back, don't say anything, put her on a leash and just
> calmly hang out there a while until she settles down. Continue this
> procedure until she will hold point long enough for you to pass her
> and she allows you to flush the birds. If she runs out ahead of you,
don't shoot. Take her back where she took off and hang out there again till
she settles down.
>
> Let me know if I can forward your e-mail or a modification of it.
>
> Dennis
--
www.craigkoshykphoto.ca
www.chiendog.blogspot.com
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
|
| 11/05/2009 1:02 PM |
|
|
Craig wrote:
>>>I tried a number of techniques to
"fix" the problem..whoa, pigeons, check cords etc. etc. but at the end of the
day, I really believe that nothing I did really made any difference. She began
pointing on her own...on wild birds in her third season. In her fourth season
she began to back...again, mainly on her own. She is now a reliable pointer and
backer. Looking back, I believe that I would have had the exact same result with
her if I had done no whoa work, check cord work, pigeon work and just let her
hunt. Of course I will never know, but that is my gut feeling. I'm just glad I
did not screw her up with all my fumbling attempts at "training" her to point.
Anyway, just my two pennies... but remember, they're canadian so they
are not worth much nowadays. >>>
That is more or less exactly what happened with Briz. We tried
this and that during the first years, to no use. Then, after we gave up the idea
of making a birddog our of her and relaxed, she started to develop in the right
direction. Had we been relaxed all the time, giving her the time she needed, she
most likely had become a birddog sooner, maybe even much sooner.
I will start to write her story tomorrow and that will explain
a lot of the misstakes we made with her. One of them is already expalined above
by Craig.
BTW, I have told something many years ago on this list. Here
it comes again: There was a farmer in Sweden who had his home in the middle of
his sugar beet land. He liked to shoot pheasants and partridge over his setters
or whatever he had. He had little time to train them so he did not bother at
all. He let them train themselves. He opened the door and they ran out and found
and chased pheasant. He let them do this, as long as it took, until they
started to point firmly, then he went out and polished them a bit and started
shooting over them. Easy as that ... provided you live in the right place!
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel www.rospigan.net "If you pick up a
starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the
principal difference between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
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lameduck
SH
Posts:44
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| 11/05/2009 1:21 PM |
|
| I had a friend who was a field trail pointer trainer. He said many times
that if you take a dog, about any kind hunting with you that the dog would
finally learn to hunt like You hunt.
Ron
> Jere,
>
> Thanks for your advice.
>
> The dog is a Griffon in her second hunting season. The owner does not
> have
> an e-collar, launcher, or birds, and the dog has not been trained to whoa
> with distractions. She's had quite a bit of exposure. I've not hunted
> with
> her but I have judged her at our breed club tests. She did not point at
> the
> tests. Sometimes dogs will not point traumatized penned birds but will
> point clean wild birds. Most of our dogs hunt with their heads both up
> and
> down.
>
> We where trying to get by with just hunting wild birds and not shooting
> unless the dog handles the birds properly. This technique has worked well
> on all my dogs and most others that I know of, but apparently not with
> this
> one. So we are looking for another way.
>
> Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: working-gundog-request@web.whc.net
> [mailto:working-gundog-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Jere Murray
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:45 PM
> To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
> Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Pointing problem
>
> What breed of dog is this?
> How old?
> Does the owner use an e-collar?
> Whether or not, does the dog know and understand the meaning of the
> verbal
> command "whoa?"
> Does the owner own or have access to remote launchers or releasers?
> How about live birds for training purposes? Pigeons? others?
> Just how much wild bird exposure has the dog really had - a few days of a
> few contacts a day or several to many weeks?
> Does the dog work birds with head up or on the ground?
>
> It certainly sounds to me as though she might be ready for and require a
> more formal and structured approach to learning her manners. The owner
> has
> seen some points but the dogs just hasn't yet given up on chasing. I may
> post something specific or provide some links after these questions are
> answered - if no one else does (Maurice?)
>
> PS, with due deference to the dear departed - I'm not a fan of "stop at
> first scent." Indeed we "went at it" over that once or twice on this
> list.
> Rather I adhere to the proposition that one gets better overall birdwork
> from the dog by stopping it AFTER it has purposely flushed birds it has
> located and failed to point and training a solid "stop to wild flush"
> response. In addition, it is easier to refresh the dog's memory should
> lapses occur in the future after a "stop to flush"
> basis has been established.
>
> I just went through such a refresher course with my older (9 1/2) pointing
> Labrador after it saw few birds for two seasons. It wasn't very quick
> (The
> dog is not a traditional pointing breed, is overly endowed with "prey
> drive"
> and rather excitable - sound like this Bella??) but the method worked
> effectively (eventually).
>
> Come on Torsti - say something about "nerve stability" or whatever term
> you
> Swedes would use to describe these dogs....
>
> Jere
>
>
>> Below is an e-mail I got from a friend with a dog that has pointing
>> problems. I've been trying to help him with this for some time. My
>> advice to this point has been to expose her to wild birds only, keep
>> his mouth shut, and don't shoot birds the dog doesn't point. That
>> does not seem to have worked, so I've suggested an idea I got from Cj
>> years ago. Any thoughts?
>>
>> Dennis Carlson
>> _____
>>
>> From: Dennis Bays
>> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:53 PM
>> To: Steve Grieser; Dennis & Mary Carlson; Rick Sojda
>> Subject: Bella - still not pointing - losing patience!
>>
>> Dennis, Rick, Steve,
>>
>> Just wondering if you have any further thoughts on Bella. I just came
>> back from two days in Eastern WA on wild birds (quail and pheasant).
>> She has no problem finding the birds, but darned if I EVER saw
>> anything that looked like a point. To the contrary, I'm convinced
>> that she just loves to flush them. On one rooster, I saw her catch
>> the scent, and run off into the heavy grass, bounding high and looking
>> around - it looked for all the world like she was looking to see the
>> bird fly. We saw 8 or 9 roosters yesterday - I shot at one that I
>> flushed - (and missed), but that was the only one within range. Plus,
>> I'm still trying NOT to shoot at anything she bumps or flushes and
>> doesn't point. It's getting VERY frustrating. I walked a LOT of
>> miles in the past two days, and brought home one solitary quail - again,
> from a covey that I flushed when Bella was way off ahead of me flushing
> roosters.
>>
>> With Brenna in her prime, and the number of birds we saw yesterday, I
>> would have had no problem limiting.
>>
>> On quail, Bella seems to be on a track, then suddenly flushes a covey.
>> Once they start flying, she just goes nuts, racing all around,
>> bouncing and bounding - and doesn't even seem to notice the singles.
>> She DOES work very hard, and really searches the cover well. She
>> loves her work. If she'd only point, I'd be very happy.
>>
>> Earlier this year, when hunting the local release site, she DID point
>> a pair of hens, which I shot. Since then, I've seen one other point
>> (non-productive, we never did find the bird), and that's it.
>>
>> Is she EVER going to get it? Is there anything I can do to reinforce
>> the correct behavior beyond what I'm doing now? I DO remember Brenna
>> going a little crazy at times, and forgetting to point when she got
>> into lots of scent when she was young, but she always pointed at times
>> - more staunchly as she got older.
>>
>> Am I doomed to have a non-pointing pointing dog?
>>
>> Please give me some reason for hope!
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Dennis and Mary
>>
>> To: 'Dennis Bays'
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 10:22 AM
>>
>> Subject: RE: Bella - still not pointing - losing patience!
>>
>> Dennis,
>>
>> You've done everything I suggested and she still doesn't point. I'm a
>> little embarrassed. Bella is the first dog I know of who won't point
>> after so much good exposure. I've got some ideas but would like to
>> forward your e-mail to a professional versatile hunting dog trainer I
>> know, trust, and respect. Do I have your permission? He might give us
>> a
> little free advice.
>> You might also look for a pro near you. I'll see what I can find out
>> about a local pro.
>>
>> Meanwhile, you might try this:
>>
>> Find a source of pen raised birds. Put one in a cage in the back of
>> your pickup with Bella in the front. It's better if you have a
>> trailer. Use the trailer and keep Bella in her crate the way you
>> normally travel. Don't let her see you get the bird or know that it's
>> back there. Place the bird in the cage out in cover where Bella won't
>> see it and don't let her see you walking out there. You might need to
>> use a dark cloth to cover your window, park so she can't see, or
>> whatever. Come back and put Bella on a check cord. Make sure the wind
>> is
> constantly coming from one general direction.
>> Take her upwind of where you walked previously and walk upwind passed
>> the caged bird. After you are well passed the upwind side of the
>> caged bird, turn 180 and head back about 30 yards downwind of the area
> from the bird.
>> You might need to get closer than this depending on the wind and
>> cover. As soon as she acknowledges scent, stop her with the check
>> cord. Pick her up and carry her back to that spot if you need to.
>> Don't say anything. Just go to her, stroke her a little while, calm
>> her down and tell her she's a good dog. When she settles down, pick
>> her up and carry her past the scent towards the truck. Put her down
>> and take her back to the truck on lead but not at heel. Just use the
>> check cord to keep her from going back to the bird. When you get back
>> to the truck, put her in the cab with you and you read a magazine
>> article, the news, or a book for about twenty minutes to half an hour.
>> Ignore her. Let her calm down on her own. If she goes to sleep,
>> that's great. We want the experience to sink in without distractions.
>> Go back, let the bird go, and get your cage. We don't want the bird
>> to distract her on the way home or at home. Do this repeatedly with
>> two day breaks between sessions until she points on her own a couple
>> times. Then hunt her on wild birds. Don't shoot if she screws up.
>> If she screws up, you go back to the spot where she screwed up. Wait
>> for her to come back, don't say anything, put her on a leash and just
>> calmly hang out there a while until she settles down. Continue this
>> procedure until she will hold point long enough for you to pass her
>> and she allows you to flush the birds. If she runs out ahead of you,
> don't shoot. Take her back where she took off and hang out there again
> till
> she settles down.
>>
>> Let me know if I can forward your e-mail or a modification of it.
>>
>> Dennis
>
>
>
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carlson
Posts:3
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| 11/06/2009 6:43 AM |
|
| Thanks to all of you for your help with my friend's dog's pointing problems.
May I forward your e-mails to him?
Dennis
|
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craig
JH
Posts:27
|
|
jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 11/08/2009 10:20 PM |
|
| No problem.
I don't guess I have much more to offer, considering the equipment available. I'd
try and get the dog on wild birds at least a few times per week every week through
this season. But, I suspect it may need some formal steadying work in the end
anyway.
Jere
> Thanks to all of you for your help with my friend's dog's pointing problems.
> May I forward your e-mails to him?
>
> Dennis
>
>
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 11/09/2009 5:53 AM |
|
|
Earlier this autumn I made an observation that may or may not
have any context to this pointing problem. A year ago we had a young IS bitch
here for obedience training. It was a very spoiled and also a very though girl.
Hence I had to practically maltreat the monster to get some kind of contact with
it. It was only 3 days and I had to press the bitch hard, I guess it went into
some kind of defence mode and even if the healing work improved I was not really
pleased. The bitch gave a very hard impression and knowing the owner very well
since years back I knew that this is the wrong dog for her, she would never gain
the dogs respect. However something positive - positive for me, not for the
owner - happened. The bitch started to follow me all the time in the house. The
owner understood that she had been entirely by-passed by her dog, got angry and
took her dog and went home.
This autumn I had forgot about the short event and as I drove
north I happened to pass their house. I phoned them to see if anyone was at
home. They were not but the told me were the spare key to the house was
hidden. When I got there I found two IS bitches in the house. I knew that
they had at least 3 bitches, perhaps even 4 and I did not recognize the ones in
the house. Since I had been sitting in the car for 5 - 6 hours I found some
leashes and took them for a walk. To my surprise the smaller one, without a word
from me or the smallest jerk in leash started to walk at heel and constantly
look up at me!
I was not sure, could this one indeed be the monster that I
had maltreated a year earlier?
In due time the owners husband came home and confirmed that it
was the monster and obviously it remembered me since it without exception
it pulled the leash with anyone else at the other end of the
leash.
So what do this have to do with pointing, or the absence of
it? Well, I think that this episode may show that it sometimes takes a long time
for things to settle in the brain of a dog. I have earlier observed that
training can be interrupted for weeks and the next time you continue with a
young dog it has improved a lot, despite of no training. I have noticed that my
own shooting improves when I now and then take a break from
training for say 2 - 4 weeks.
Hence I think that if you let a non-pointing pointing dog run
wild for some time in an environment holding a lot of wild birds that can
escape, then let the dog rest entirely from any game for a period - how long is
anybody's guess - it might have digested its earlier experiences and
perhaps start to point instead of flushing. Who dares to try it?
We could of course try with Sunnie had she not been so much of
a birddog that she points already, at an age of 3 months.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel www.rospigan.net "If you pick up a
starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the
principal difference between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 6:04
AM
Subject: RE: [working-gundog] Pointing
problem
No problem.
I don't guess I have much more to offer,
considering the equipment available. I'd
try and get the dog on wild
birds at least a few times per week every week through
this season.
But, I suspect it may need some formal steadying work in the
end
anyway.
Jere
> Thanks to all of you for your help with
my friend's dog's pointing problems.
> May I forward your e-mails to
him?
>
> Dennis
>
>
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snips
n.ga.
MH
Posts:413
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| 11/23/2009 6:29 PM |
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I bet if you stop the chase the dog will start pointing. |
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brenda |
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Jere Murray
Posts:1
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| 11/24/2009 9:53 AM |
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Hi Brenda,
I'm wondering if we've ever had a post to WGD list through the Shorthairs.net forum before? Is that what happened here? Anyone see that before?
Jere |
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 11/24/2009 11:54 AM |
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I have not seen it before.
And by the way I do not see that much more nowadays since
we only have some 6 hours of daylight now and it is decreasing for an
additional month. However I just saw another light at the end of the dark tunnel
of editing digital video. I made the first 2 cuts in "Sunnies first bird" and
that was the first faint light emitted from some semi-dead brain
cells I have been waiting for.
The mental process before getting started with something
entirely new was for me like it must be for a dog to be force trained. You
do not know what is expected from you, you know you feel discomfort and pain but
you do not at first understand what to do to get rid of it. Then suddenly
the first small coin falls down, you make the first right movement and the
pain is suddenly released! You do not really know why it was released but you
will remember what move you made that released it next time someone demands
something similar from you.
Yes, the process of learning and creation is full of sweat and
pain but also exhilarated delight and reward.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel www.rospigan.net "If you pick up a
starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the
principal difference between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:39
PM
Subject: SubscribedEmail
(a11d47a4-3b65-4cb8-96f3-1e431be5ed09)
At 11/24/2009 9:53 AM a message was posted to a thread you were
tracking.
RE: [working-gundog] Pointing problem by Jere Murray
Hi Brenda,
I'm wondering if we've ever had a post to WGD list through the
Shorthairs.net forum before? Is that what happened here? Anyone see that
before?
Jere
To view the complete thread and reply, please visit:
http://www.shorthairs.net/GSPForum/tabid/220/view/topic/postid/51691/ptarget/52834/Default.aspx
You
were sent this email because you opted to receive email notifications when
someone responded to this thread. To unsubscribe to this thread please visit
your user profile page delete this post from your subscribed topics.
Thank
you,
shorthairs.net
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 11/24/2009 10:42 PM |
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| Personally, I would not "force" a dog before teaching it what the command means,
what the expected response to the command is, before doing the 'force" step.
Jere
> ...
> The mental process before getting started with something entirely new was for me
> like it must be for a dog to be force trained. You do not know what is expected
> from you, you know you feel discomfort and pain but you do not at first understand
> what to do to get rid of it. Then suddenly the first small coin falls down, you
> make the first right movement and the pain is suddenly released! You do not really
> know why it was released but you will remember what move you made that released it
> next time someone demands something similar from you.
...
> Torsti
> Borta Med Vindens Kennel
> www.rospigan.net
> "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
> he will not bite you; that is the principal difference
> between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
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