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| Author |
Messages |
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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 12/08/2007 3:53 PM |
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In the name of animal well-fare we are most likely not allowed to kill
anything with black powder, neither with bow and arrow. So if you have the
time you could tell us something about muzzle loading hunters.
Torsti
My friends all hunt with modern plastic stocked bolt action primer fired
muzzle loaders. They're insensitive to water and much more reliable than
the old style percussion cap muzzle loaders. They have nice scopes and can
take deer at quite a distance. I have adopted a modern substitute black
powder that doesn't foul the barrel as badly as does black powder and it's a
bit less corrosive so I don't have to clean and oil it every time I fire
once. I like my Thompson Contender .50 cal muzzle loader, it is pretty and
has a nice brass side hammer (but with a modern stainless steel percussion
nipple). The original steel nipples for the percussion caps lasted about
one season and then were so corroded that you had to replace them.
In wet weather the plastic wrap I put around the barrel and hammer to keep
out the water is a bit of a hazard, when you fire the percussion cap sets
the plastic wrap on fire and you have to dance a bit to keep from getting
burned.
Last year I made a fancy leather percussion cap cover that kept out the
water admirably but unfortunately it too caught fire. So I'm back to
plastic wrap because it's cheaper than leather.
Muzzle loading is a bit of a hassle because you carry along a "possibles"
bag that contains powder horn, powder measure, percussion caps, spare
nipples, sabots, patches, nipple wrench and nipple cleaner and a hand pusher
for starting the sabot down the barrel. With all that junk firing a shot is
quite a production so you wait to get a good shot because a second shot is a
minute or so away at best.
Most muzzle loading hunters in this area use 90 to 100 grains of powder for
a charge but I prefer the faster load of 125 grains of powder. You cannot
mix the charges since you sight in the rifle for the powder weight you are
going to use. A 125 grain charge gives you a very different trajectory than
a 100 grain load so you absolutely have to measure your powder for each and
every shot.
In the movies it looks so simple, a dash of powder a patch and a ball... if
you do the loading by guess you have no accuracy at all. For second shots a
modest percentage of deer show evidence of the hunter's excitement, they are
impaled by the ramrod and the ball. When excited you remember to ram the
ball down on the powder but forget to take out the ramrod...
Of course there's really no great rush for a second shot, if there's no
breeze you're in a cloud of thick smoke for a while and can't see anything.
Muzzle loading isn't about getting deer, it's all about the rituals you have
to use. {
Cj
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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 12/09/2007 12:09 AM |
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| Torsti-
now he touched a nerve. (CJ, that is)
side point: we get into these things around here as we are allowed more
and longer seasons if we use Muzzle loaders, i.e. "one shot one kill"
philosophy.
also they are low recoil because of the long burn time, so women and
children can get involved easily.
running a Thompson center encore 50 cal 209 primer with 300 grn
ballistic tipped lead slug (BAD Ballistic Coefficients) with 130grn of
black powder currently. 26" 1x24 twist. CleanShot BP; using a 3x9 50mm
scope on it. wood stock. 2200 fps MV if i remember correctly.
killed a ~200 lb buck at 285 yds two years ago. more about that kill
if you are interested.
setting up a Thompson Center 50 cal 209 gun now (my xmas present to
myself) with a 3x12 50mm for next year. going to a synthetic recoil
reducer stock (interchangable if I don't like it) will probably go to a
260grn slug that a buddy is doing 1.3" patterns with at 500 yards. that
gun is a 28" 1:24 twist.
the third gun i may consider is a Savage II ML ?mauser action? as it is
set up as a smokeless gun ignited by a 209 also. it's a ?26"? barrel and
i can't tell you exactly what the twist is on that barrel, but they are
getting good patterns out of saboted 50 cal lead going very fast (?2600 fps)
I've been thinking about having a 40 cal gun made for me, as I'm
interested in sintering (sp?) powdered tungsten into lead to get the
density up to 15g/cc or so (lead is 11.2; jere was an invaluable help in
talking about that to me) to reduce wind drift issues and improve
penetration. It would be nice to take a tungsten core and wrap it in
lead, but that cost is high.
AND even found a army sniper/competitor type who agrees with me that 308
is the best cal for the bullet aerodynamically (which may be true)
AND found a barrel maker (guy above) who has sintered tungsten at 14.3
g/cc in ?40? saboted to 50cal but his stuff tumbled because the slug
spun in the sabot (plastic wouldn't grip the superdensity)
SO he's pointed out that going to 308 will be even tuffer.
SO, I'm thinking two part hard plastic with locking side grooves (should
be aerodynamic???)
BUT, the cost of experimentation is high ($2k-$20K) so i'm stopped in my
tracks now.
the bullet isn't tuff as i can melt lead on my stove. evenly spaced
sintered tungsten could be tuff, but this is not rocket science
but, the plastic is difficult/costly to develop. honeywell did some
stuff in vietnam era with depleted uranium and iron, but then the cost
is high again. (and who wants to EAT a GLOW DEER!!!)
NOW after all that science, (and I too have to get to bed as it's -7F
around here and my wife wants me on the stand to back her up in 5 hours
and I would like to get some sleep, but tomorrow is our last day of
killing, errr, i mean field testing...)
AND knowing that I've been doing all this as I've been after a 300# 200"
BLACK coated WHITETAIL for four years without a shot...
he WALKED by my stand on opening morning at 6:15am at 40 FEET upwind of
me. I had him in my scope for 90 SECONDS while he passed and he didn't
even flinch...
I had to stand down...
It was 30 minutes before opening.
He deserves One Shot One Kill AND a legal one at that...
Just about close enuf to throw one of my spears, but that's another story.
(Clem, Jere- Did I ever show you my hand thrown spears up in the barn
when you were here??? Specs on request in public)
Anyway, Jere, I'll call when I get a little more info and we can
brainstorm about cheap plastic mold possibilities. I sure would like to
throw 250 grns of tungsten to 500 yards. no wind drift super flat
trajectories. no rangefinders, well OK a small one); no hunting guides
saying NO HIGHER HIGHER, (worse than women...)
Until then, the most exciting thing I am doing here (aside from breeding
and selling the best versatile dog in the world, of course),
is that I've found a partner in crime (young farmer who wants to hunt my
land) who will drag bunkers of cob corn up into the field this winter
and I've already got 4 infrared cameras ready to set up,
SOOOO, we may get pictures of BLACK BUCK yet, AND, when you are hunting
MAN, a picture of a LIVE deer is much more valuable ANYWAY...
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Cj wrote:
> In the name of animal well-fare we are most likely not allowed to kill
> anything with black powder, neither with bow and arrow. So if you have
> the time you could tell us something about muzzle loading hunters.
>
> Torsti
>
> My friends all hunt with modern plastic stocked bolt action primer
> fired muzzle loaders. They're insensitive to water and much more
> reliable than the old style percussion cap muzzle loaders. They have
> nice scopes and can take deer at quite a distance. I have adopted a
> modern substitute black powder that doesn't foul the barrel as badly
> as does black powder and it's a bit less corrosive so I don't have to
> clean and oil it every time I fire once. I like my Thompson
> Contender .50 cal muzzle loader, it is pretty and has a nice brass
> side hammer (but with a modern stainless steel percussion nipple).
> The original steel nipples for the percussion caps lasted about one
> season and then were so corroded that you had to replace them.
>
> In wet weather the plastic wrap I put around the barrel and hammer to
> keep out the water is a bit of a hazard, when you fire the percussion
> cap sets the plastic wrap on fire and you have to dance a bit to keep
> from getting burned.
> Last year I made a fancy leather percussion cap cover that kept out
> the water admirably but unfortunately it too caught fire. So I'm back
> to plastic wrap because it's cheaper than leather.
>
> Muzzle loading is a bit of a hassle because you carry along a
> "possibles" bag that contains powder horn, powder measure, percussion
> caps, spare nipples, sabots, patches, nipple wrench and nipple cleaner
> and a hand pusher for starting the sabot down the barrel. With all
> that junk firing a shot is quite a production so you wait to get a
> good shot because a second shot is a minute or so away at best.
>
> Most muzzle loading hunters in this area use 90 to 100 grains of
> powder for a charge but I prefer the faster load of 125 grains of
> powder. You cannot mix the charges since you sight in the rifle for
> the powder weight you are going to use. A 125 grain charge gives you
> a very different trajectory than a 100 grain load so you absolutely
> have to measure your powder for each and every shot.
> In the movies it looks so simple, a dash of powder a patch and a
> ball... if you do the loading by guess you have no accuracy at all.
> For second shots a modest percentage of deer show evidence of the
> hunter's excitement, they are impaled by the ramrod and the ball.
> When excited you remember to ram the ball down on the powder but
> forget to take out the ramrod...
>
> Of course there's really no great rush for a second shot, if there's
> no breeze you're in a cloud of thick smoke for a while and can't see
> anything. Muzzle loading isn't about getting deer, it's all about the
> rituals you have to use. {
> Cj
> |
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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 12/09/2007 2:46 AM |
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| forgot to also add that i'm shooting my deer from 10-20' wooden stands
suspended between two trees, usually oak/maple with a 2"x6" mortised
railing around the edge (sit or shoot) and this helps the smoke-clearing
and ground-noise-bounce-off-of-frozen-earth problem. I've fired as many
as 6 shots from one site. I once shot 4 whitetails within as many
minutes with my muzzleloader. witnesses available or at least the poor
fellow who had to help me drag the carcasses out of the public hunting
area in the middle of the nite. yes all legal. was population trimming
season. still takes thirty seconds so it's still OSOK (one shot, one
kill) But, by elevating the shooter, it's more difficult for the deer to
determine location so the have more of a tendency to stay put rather
than flee.
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Cj wrote:
> In the name of animal well-fare we are most likely not allowed to kill
> anything with black powder, neither with bow and arrow. So if you have
> the time you could tell us something about muzzle loading hunters.
>
> Torsti
>
> My friends all hunt with modern plastic stocked bolt action primer
> fired muzzle loaders. They're insensitive to water and much more
> reliable than the old style percussion cap muzzle loaders. They have
> nice scopes and can take deer at quite a distance. I have adopted a
> modern substitute black powder that doesn't foul the barrel as badly
> as does black powder and it's a bit less corrosive so I don't have to
> clean and oil it every time I fire once. I like my Thompson
> Contender .50 cal muzzle loader, it is pretty and has a nice brass
> side hammer (but with a modern stainless steel percussion nipple).
> The original steel nipples for the percussion caps lasted about one
> season and then were so corroded that you had to replace them.
>
> In wet weather the plastic wrap I put around the barrel and hammer to
> keep out the water is a bit of a hazard, when you fire the percussion
> cap sets the plastic wrap on fire and you have to dance a bit to keep
> from getting burned.
> Last year I made a fancy leather percussion cap cover that kept out
> the water admirably but unfortunately it too caught fire. So I'm back
> to plastic wrap because it's cheaper than leather.
>
> Muzzle loading is a bit of a hassle because you carry along a
> "possibles" bag that contains powder horn, powder measure, percussion
> caps, spare nipples, sabots, patches, nipple wrench and nipple cleaner
> and a hand pusher for starting the sabot down the barrel. With all
> that junk firing a shot is quite a production so you wait to get a
> good shot because a second shot is a minute or so away at best.
>
> Most muzzle loading hunters in this area use 90 to 100 grains of
> powder for a charge but I prefer the faster load of 125 grains of
> powder. You cannot mix the charges since you sight in the rifle for
> the powder weight you are going to use. A 125 grain charge gives you
> a very different trajectory than a 100 grain load so you absolutely
> have to measure your powder for each and every shot.
> In the movies it looks so simple, a dash of powder a patch and a
> ball... if you do the loading by guess you have no accuracy at all.
> For second shots a modest percentage of deer show evidence of the
> hunter's excitement, they are impaled by the ramrod and the ball.
> When excited you remember to ram the ball down on the powder but
> forget to take out the ramrod...
>
> Of course there's really no great rush for a second shot, if there's
> no breeze you're in a cloud of thick smoke for a while and can't see
> anything. Muzzle loading isn't about getting deer, it's all about the
> rituals you have to use. {
> Cj
> |
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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 12/09/2007 2:52 AM |
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| i also shoot cubed powder so there is no need to measure powder. Due to
the nature of BP (black powder, i.e. slow burn) you can really quite
safely overcharge the load and the unburnt powder just exhausts down
range. yes, this could start grass fires, so one must be somewhat
careful, especially hunting on my 240 acres as I've got 100A in 3-8'
switchgrass that the deer do love. 20A of 8' big blue stem, 5A of
turnips and you think you died and went to whitetail heaven!
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Cj wrote:
> In the name of animal well-fare we are most likely not allowed to kill
> anything with black powder, neither with bow and arrow. So if you have
> the time you could tell us something about muzzle loading hunters.
>
> Torsti
>
> My friends all hunt with modern plastic stocked bolt action primer
> fired muzzle loaders. They're insensitive to water and much more
> reliable than the old style percussion cap muzzle loaders. They have
> nice scopes and can take deer at quite a distance. I have adopted a
> modern substitute black powder that doesn't foul the barrel as badly
> as does black powder and it's a bit less corrosive so I don't have to
> clean and oil it every time I fire once. I like my Thompson
> Contender .50 cal muzzle loader, it is pretty and has a nice brass
> side hammer (but with a modern stainless steel percussion nipple).
> The original steel nipples for the percussion caps lasted about one
> season and then were so corroded that you had to replace them.
>
> In wet weather the plastic wrap I put around the barrel and hammer to
> keep out the water is a bit of a hazard, when you fire the percussion
> cap sets the plastic wrap on fire and you have to dance a bit to keep
> from getting burned.
> Last year I made a fancy leather percussion cap cover that kept out
> the water admirably but unfortunately it too caught fire. So I'm back
> to plastic wrap because it's cheaper than leather.
>
> Muzzle loading is a bit of a hassle because you carry along a
> "possibles" bag that contains powder horn, powder measure, percussion
> caps, spare nipples, sabots, patches, nipple wrench and nipple cleaner
> and a hand pusher for starting the sabot down the barrel. With all
> that junk firing a shot is quite a production so you wait to get a
> good shot because a second shot is a minute or so away at best.
>
> Most muzzle loading hunters in this area use 90 to 100 grains of
> powder for a charge but I prefer the faster load of 125 grains of
> powder. You cannot mix the charges since you sight in the rifle for
> the powder weight you are going to use. A 125 grain charge gives you
> a very different trajectory than a 100 grain load so you absolutely
> have to measure your powder for each and every shot.
> In the movies it looks so simple, a dash of powder a patch and a
> ball... if you do the loading by guess you have no accuracy at all.
> For second shots a modest percentage of deer show evidence of the
> hunter's excitement, they are impaled by the ramrod and the ball.
> When excited you remember to ram the ball down on the powder but
> forget to take out the ramrod...
>
> Of course there's really no great rush for a second shot, if there's
> no breeze you're in a cloud of thick smoke for a while and can't see
> anything. Muzzle loading isn't about getting deer, it's all about the
> rituals you have to use. {
> Cj
> |
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