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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 12/04/2007 2:56 PM |
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....reticent, distant, stand-offish, guarded dogs.
I picked these word from my lexicon.
Generally I have noticed that socially well-trained
dogs that are at a first glaze reserved are also in the prolongation a bit wily,
more or less.
There are, almost as a rule, some "dishonest"
characteristics in "reserved" dogs that cant take immediate positive contact
with friendly minded strangers. We use to call it " a lack of courage" that
leads to an aggressive behaviour if the contact taking behaviour does not
immediately, within fractions of a second, lead to positive response from
the other side. Such a dog does not have the nerve stability to further
investigate the situation but decides that "better safe than sorry" and makes an
attack in order to protect itself against a threat that has not been proofed at
the time of the attack!
Only a few days ago I first "played" with some
Australian breed of sheep dog that i had found to be very careful with its
contact with strangers. After I invited it to play with body language and got a
bit contact with it, I took it to Foxy that was resting nearby. Foxy has never
in her life started anything that could be called a fight. Now this sheep dog
went cautiously up to Foxy, from a distance of a few feet's she decided that
Foxy is dangerous ( the first dog in Foxys life to discover that) and started a
quarrel! I finished it of course at once.
This is far from the first dog that I have noticed
is a bit "shy", I have then felt pity and contacted it, got contact and then,
when guiding it to some more demanding social duties, like to meet another dog,
found that it has not got the "guts" to do it.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 12/04/2007 3:32 PM |
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| what did you learn from this??
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Maud & Torsti wrote:
> ....reticent, distant, stand-offish, guarded dogs. I picked these word
> from my lexicon.
>
> Generally I have noticed that socially well-trained dogs that are at a
> first glaze reserved are also in the prolongation a bit wily, more or
> less.
>
> There are, almost as a rule, some "dishonest" characteristics in
> "reserved" dogs that cant take immediate positive contact with
> friendly minded strangers. We use to call it " a lack of courage" that
> leads to an aggressive behaviour if the contact taking behaviour does
> not immediately, within fractions of a second, lead to positive
> response from the other side. Such a dog does not have the nerve
> stability to further investigate the situation but decides that
> "better safe than sorry" and makes an attack in order to protect
> itself against a threat that has not been proofed at the time of the
> attack!
>
> Only a few days ago I first "played" with some Australian breed of
> sheep dog that i had found to be very careful with its contact with
> strangers. After I invited it to play with body language and got a bit
> contact with it, I took it to Foxy that was resting nearby. Foxy has
> never in her life started anything that could be called a fight. Now
> this sheep dog went cautiously up to Foxy, from a distance of a few
> feet's she decided that Foxy is dangerous ( the first dog in Foxys
> life to discover that) and started a quarrel! I finished it of course
> at once.
>
> This is far from the first dog that I have noticed is a bit "shy", I
> have then felt pity and contacted it, got contact and then, when
> guiding it to some more demanding social duties, like to meet another
> dog, found that it has not got the "guts" to do it.
>
> Torsti
>
> Borta Med Vindens Kennel
> "Ask not what your dog can do for you.
> Ask what you can do for your dog."
> www.rospigan.net
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1170 - Release Date: 12/4/2007 10:52 AM
> |
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 12/05/2007 4:01 AM |
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>>>what did you learn from this??
Stu, Dawn & Hunter
West >>
For example when I first visited Miss "The Peep"
Sophie's mother she did not take contact in any way immediately. I guess
you have read the rest of "the Miss Sophie Story" at our website?
Last week when Foxy got the unjustified treatment
from the cattle dog I decided to trust my intuition in the future and never
again trust a dog that is "reserved".
Long ago a woman stepped out of her car outside our
house. Foxy went to greet her but Springer did not. The woman asked how
come Springer did not take contact. Maud said: "She did already, you just
did not notice it". Springer had walk past the car when the woman just had
stepped out. Doing so Springer turned her head away from the woman for a
fraction of a second, thereby saying" I am harmless, I am your
friend".
A dog does not always have to proof its social
nature by trying to lick your face, but some dogs tell this with small means
that we may not always understand.
Had the woman invited Springer to play Springer
would have taken a different approach. Now Springer had no immediate interest in
the woman, nor did she see the woman as a threat since her experience
from humans had always been very positive and her inherited abilities as a guard
dog where small. From Springer's view she had no reason at that point to do
anything else but to tell the woman that she is a "friend" by turning her head
away for a moment.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
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mcotton
MH
Posts:87
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| 12/05/2007 12:14 PM |
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Those Australian Cattle dogs are very much a tough
sharp working dog and not known for their cheerful personality.
Reserved is not the term I'd use Torsti. Jive
is reserved but she has never shown any inclination to behave as the cattle dog,
she just goes her own way and keeps a distance from other dogs (if she senses
they aren't friendly)
and people.
What you met up with was a dog of poor nerve
stability as you say. You don't know it's breeding, upbringing or what may
have happened between the dog and people/other dogs to make it this way.
It seems to be dog aggressive and if male it certainly should not have attacked
a female, so there are issues there.
Look after your dogs and don't trust other dogs
Torsti, they can be a screwed up as their owners 
Marg
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:45
AM
Subject: [working-gundog]
Reserved...
....reticent, distant, stand-offish, guarded
dogs. I picked these word from my lexicon.
Generally I have noticed that socially
well-trained dogs that are at a first glaze reserved are also in the
prolongation a bit wily, more or less.
There are, almost as a rule, some
"dishonest" characteristics in "reserved" dogs that cant take immediate
positive contact with friendly minded strangers. We use to call it " a lack of
courage" that leads to an aggressive behaviour if the contact taking behaviour
does not immediately, within fractions of a second, lead to positive
response from the other side. Such a dog does not have the nerve stability to
further investigate the situation but decides that "better safe than sorry"
and makes an attack in order to protect itself against a threat that has not
been proofed at the time of the attack!
Only a few days ago I first "played" with some
Australian breed of sheep dog that i had found to be very careful with its
contact with strangers. After I invited it to play with body language and got
a bit contact with it, I took it to Foxy that was resting nearby. Foxy has
never in her life started anything that could be called a fight. Now this
sheep dog went cautiously up to Foxy, from a distance of a few feet's she
decided that Foxy is dangerous ( the first dog in Foxys life to discover that)
and started a quarrel! I finished it of course at once.
This is far from the first dog that I have
noticed is a bit "shy", I have then felt pity and contacted it, got contact
and then, when guiding it to some more demanding social duties, like to meet
another dog, found that it has not got the "guts" to do it.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 12/05/2007 3:07 PM |
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>>>Those Australian Cattle dogs are very
much a tough sharp working dog and not known for their cheerful
personality.
Reserved is not the term I'd use Torsti. Jive
is reserved but she has never shown any inclination to behave as the cattle dog,
she just goes her own way and keeps a distance from other dogs (if she senses
they aren't friendly)
and people.
What you met up with was a dog of poor nerve
stability as you say. You don't know it's breeding, upbringing or what may
have happened between the dog and people/other dogs to make it this way.
It seems to be dog aggressive and if male it certainly should not have attacked
a female, so there are issues there.
Look after your dogs and don't trust other dogs
Torsti, they can be a screwed up as their owners
Marg>>>>
The cattle dog breed is Kelpie and it is not uncommon among those who
compete in obedience. In Sweden I believe the Border Collie is by far the most
popular sheep farmers working dog. However I used it only as the most
recent example of bad mentality and as you say, the owner was in no way
conscious about this.
Our own Briz is another example but she does not use aggressivity but tries
to avoid demanding social situations when among dogs that she does not know.. In
the cafe' room at the nearby dog club she prefers to sit or lay in my knee
and that way she can avoid any contact with other dogs that are taken indoors.
There are all kind of breeds but no birddogs that she is used to and can live
with.
In our last gundog obedience class there was a small Swedish elkhound bitch
that was very submissive when we first greeted her and I suspected a problem
with the dog. Whatever it was it was not aggressivity but something else.
At the end of the class we gave the owner some advice about how to raise the
dogs self estimation. Not long ago the owner called and spoke to Maud and said
the dog is improving a lot. So you can help such dogs to some degree, more or
less depending of the individual, by a different handling. I remember that the
owner of this dog was a very gentle man and most likely we gave him the
advice to be more firm with the dog, thereby establishing a leadership and
reliving the dog of most of its social duties.
In general the Swedish breeds of elkhounds and harehounds have few problems
with their social life. They are most often very easy to approach. There are
more problems among the imported gundogs, not to mention all the pet dog breeds
that have been bred for shows only.
Now I again deviated from the subject..............
Anyway I try to say that already when you for the first time approach and
greet a dog you can tell if there is some serious negative stuff in its head
that is bothering it. If you for example from a distance observe it working
only you may be fooled by what you see.
A dog with a social problem feels uncomfortable when it has to meet social
demands. When the same dog is working it can forget everything else around it
since it has to concentrate on the work, it feels free and comfortable and
enjoys the comfort and security the work gives. I can for ex. remember a Kleiner
Munsterlander that was a social disaster but a genius when hunting.
It is up to each one of us to decide if we want a nice whole in our dog or
if we only care about how it is working and can live with any other less
desirable characteristic it may have.
However the human society is more demanding today and do not accept
misbehaving dogs that easy anymore. Therefore my own opinion is clear. I rather
have a dog that can be a good ambassador for our sport and charm any person it
meets than a FTCH only that bites every living thing it meets ))
Otherwise we could share some of the rain we have got during the last 10 -
14 days, and that we will get the coming 4 - 5 days, with for example Australia
that has got none. If this continues for any length of time I can do as I did a
number of years ago - shoot ducks on the flooded grain fields!
There is a good x-mas offer for anyone who bothers to utilize it. Dark
clouds are for free until new year!
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
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mcotton
MH
Posts:87
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| 12/06/2007 1:47 AM |
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The main issue with working dogs, in this instance
dogs for herding cattle that can live with men cattle herders, is
them being purchased as sedentary pets.
These dogs have little to do yet full of instinct
to do a job. Like youths with no outlet for their energies. We had trouble
with (snappy, barking, flighty) border collies in
NZ until the show folk bred them duller (and heavier).
At least our working gundogs are developed on the
whole to be companion animals as well as "working".
Marg
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 10:54
AM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog]
Reserved...
>>>Those Australian Cattle dogs are very
much a tough sharp working dog and not known for their cheerful
personality.
Reserved is not the term I'd use Torsti.
Jive is reserved but she has never shown any inclination to behave as the
cattle dog, she just goes her own way and keeps a distance from other dogs (if
she senses they aren't friendly)
and people.
What you met up with was a dog of poor nerve
stability as you say. You don't know it's breeding, upbringing or what
may have happened between the dog and people/other dogs to make it this
way. It seems to be dog aggressive and if male it certainly should not
have attacked a female, so there are issues there.
Look after your dogs and don't trust other dogs
Torsti, they can be a screwed up as their owners
Marg>>>>
The cattle dog breed is Kelpie and it is not uncommon among those who
compete in obedience. In Sweden I believe the Border Collie is by far the most
popular sheep farmers working dog. However I used it only as the most
recent example of bad mentality and as you say, the owner was in no way
conscious about this.
Our own Briz is another example but she does not use aggressivity but
tries to avoid demanding social situations when among dogs that she does not
know.. In the cafe' room at the nearby dog club she prefers to sit or
lay in my knee and that way she can avoid any contact with other dogs that are
taken indoors. There are all kind of breeds but no birddogs that she is used
to and can live with.
In our last gundog obedience class there was a small Swedish elkhound
bitch that was very submissive when we first greeted her and I suspected a
problem with the dog. Whatever it was it was not aggressivity but
something else. At the end of the class we gave the owner some advice about
how to raise the dogs self estimation. Not long ago the owner called and spoke
to Maud and said the dog is improving a lot. So you can help such dogs to some
degree, more or less depending of the individual, by a different handling. I
remember that the owner of this dog was a very gentle man and most
likely we gave him the advice to be more firm with the dog, thereby
establishing a leadership and reliving the dog of most of its social
duties.
In general the Swedish breeds of elkhounds and harehounds have few
problems with their social life. They are most often very easy to approach.
There are more problems among the imported gundogs, not to mention all the pet
dog breeds that have been bred for shows only.
Now I again deviated from the subject..............
Anyway I try to say that already when you for the first time approach and
greet a dog you can tell if there is some serious negative stuff in its head
that is bothering it. If you for example from a distance observe it
working only you may be fooled by what you see.
A dog with a social problem feels uncomfortable when it has to meet
social demands. When the same dog is working it can forget everything else
around it since it has to concentrate on the work, it feels free and
comfortable and enjoys the comfort and security the work gives. I can for ex.
remember a Kleiner Munsterlander that was a social disaster but a genius when
hunting.
It is up to each one of us to decide if we want a nice whole in our dog
or if we only care about how it is working and can live with any other less
desirable characteristic it may have.
However the human society is more demanding today and do not accept
misbehaving dogs that easy anymore. Therefore my own opinion is clear. I
rather have a dog that can be a good ambassador for our sport and charm any
person it meets than a FTCH only that bites every living thing it meets
))
Otherwise we could share some of the rain we have got during the last 10
- 14 days, and that we will get the coming 4 - 5 days, with for example
Australia that has got none. If this continues for any length of time I can do
as I did a number of years ago - shoot ducks on the flooded grain
fields!
There is a good x-mas offer for anyone who bothers to utilize it.
Dark clouds are for free until new year!
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 12/07/2007 10:59 AM |
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Marg wrote:
>>>The main issue with working dogs, in
this instance dogs for herding cattle that can live with men cattle herders, is
them being purchased as sedentary pets.>>
There are of course many places in the world (even in Sweden) and many
different jobs for the working dogs that demands that the dog is suspicious to
anyone and anything outside of its own pack. I did not mean those dogs, they do
what they have to do and where they work they have the right to do it.
I was thinking about the majority of us hunters who do not have an outright
need of protection from the dog, except to keep a few bears or boars at a
distance from us.
As you say a first or second or third generation of a pure working dog will
cause problems unless it is given enough of stimulating work - more or less
every day! They can not be held as pet dogs only and often they end up in
some other family after the first one has miserably failed with them. Breeding
the working ability out of them is however very easy. Take a pure working
springer and breed it to a show or dual purpose springer a couple of times and
then you have a reasonably calm pet dog that is useless for hunting. They can of
course chase deer and hare but then again any dog (almost) can do that if
permitted.
What I meant is that the even the first approach to a dog can give you
valuable clue's about it's mentality. People can lie and you could hire the
wrong person due to his or her good behaviour at the interview. Dogs cant lie!
They can be "wily" but they can't lie!
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
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