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Subject: [working-gundog] prey drive
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mcottonUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:87


11/22/2007 5:02 AM  
Don has written me and said his young springer has excessive prey drive and he is finding her/him difficult to control (I'm not sure control is the word he used, but it'll do). Asks if CJ has written anything on "prey drive". I can't find anything in my kept emails. Marg
rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


11/22/2007 10:36 AM  
I shall be happy discuss the issue when I come back tomorrow from a short trip that will start within minutes. Meanwhile think of this: Some marsupial use either a "dew claw" or hallux for climbing trees and bushes. If it is a dew claw - is it the same dew claw found on our dogs and cats, thereby indicating that marupials are the predecessors of dogs and cats?
 
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 10:26 AM
Subject: [working-gundog] prey drive

Don has written me and said his young springer has excessive prey drive and
he is finding her/him difficult to control (I'm not sure control is the word
he used, but it'll do).  Asks if CJ has written anything on "prey drive".
I can't find anything in my kept emails.

Marg
rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


11/23/2007 12:03 PM  
These are a mixture of my own thoughts and thoughts that I have learned from other folks during the years. There could be a hint of truth in them or then not:
 
The subject "prey drive" and how it interacts with other mental characteristics in a dog is an interesting one. It is difficult to precisely define it. The observers might have different opinions about when the prey drive is triggered and what "drives" the dog before it is triggered. Among the duty dog circles the prey drive is what drives the dog in a hunting pack during the search until the very moment when the prey is killed. For a duty dog a hunting pack can be its handler and in addition perhaps the group of police officers it works with.  To the duty dog it does not matter if it has been trained to direct its prey drive towards humans, scent or sight. It is still hunting the same way as it would be hunting deer or other game if the circumstances were different.
 
What if there is no hunting pack that gradually will teach the puppy the reason for the search? We all know that it does not matter much, well bred gundog breeds will start to search and chase anyway. The behaviour is in other words inherited, it is there in the genes and so is the interest for different types of scents and movements of other objects, let it be balls, birds, rabbits, cars, bicycles or the neighbours cat. We do not have to teach the puppy to search and chase, it will anyway be triggered to search and chase by different stimuli.
 
To me this subject is very complex and I really do not know how to continue from here. Lets take a setter that is a "joy runner". Our joy runner is not a setter that by bad training has been induced to neglect game but a true joy runner, a dog that has no prey drive at all but really kind of enjoys the speed, the wind and the open ground it is covering. It looks like it is searching, it has stamina, speed and style but it never shows any interest in any kind of game. It will start to "search" the very moment it is allowed to do so but it never produces game. Its other behaviours might be very similar to other good working setters; gentle and attractive at home and socially, a little bit difficult to motivate for obedience work and difficult to handle on the field. The problem is that it never produces game or chase!
This is a dog that lacks prey drive.
 
The opposite example might be our first dog, the Kleiner Munsterlander. It was a rather active dog but it never seemed to have any aim with its activity. It was grubbing about in the field in a very slow pace, could be stuck in a scent for a long time here and there until it literally stumbled into game. Then there was no limit, no head and tail in the chase he put up, totally out of control the dog was not aware of the outside world. When the stimuli (the game) had fooled him he made no attempt to analyse the situation but gave up the chase. This dog had some prey drive but not that strong, it was only triggered when the stimuli was very strong and as the stimuli weakened the prey drive rapidly faded away.
 
The best example I have of a very strong and positive prey drive, a somewhat balanced, strong prey drive that can be used productively, can be found in our old Foxy. She can search long days, day after day, on sometimes empty mountains and never, ever give up. She has always been confident that beyond the next mountain ridge there will be birds and she has ranged very wide to find them and never lost track of us, thereby proving that she does not hunt without using her head. When she finally has found birds she has at younger age, before gaining experience, sometimes been a little bit too bold with them by putting too much pressure on them. That was turned into an advantage later when she got some experience and she can nail anything to the spot, let it be grouse or elephants (whenever they can be found this far north:-))) ).
 
In order to be "of a useable nature" her strong prey drive must be "balanced" with other positive characteristics like boldness and a good nerve stability, otherwise it will make the dog to topple over. The boldness and nerve stability helps the dog with the very strong prey drive to keep contact with the outer world, and hence the handler while highly motivated to catch a game. Since it is not soft it will not be easy to handle but with firmness it is possible to handle, like a Ferrari. And like a Ferrari it will give you the best performance, provided you know how to drive it. Foxy has been very consistent. Out on the field she has been about the same character from day one to today, 13 years later. She has a good nerve stability that cant be much affected by stressors.
 
Another example of a strong prey drive I have is from my late Springer the spaniel. It was positive to start with, say the first 4 - 5 years. It drove her to do great things but she lacked something - a good nerve stability. Every situation with game built up stress within her, if ever so slightly, and this stress, contrary to Foxy's stress, was never washed away during the next nights sleep. Small, small pieces of stress was laid one above the other and it built up the basic stress level in her so that in the end, after say 5 - 6 years, she was very much wound up already at the start of the day at driven shoots and out of control at the end of the day.
 
As a working springer spaniel she was pretty much "normal" in that sense. Generally they are not expected to last for much longer if frequently run on driven shoots. If they are bred to be "really easy to handle" with a lot of "will to please", in other words "very soft", and still have a strong prey drive, they will not last that long. 
 
The cocker spaniels in particular, as I saw them in the past, or other breeds for that matter like the flatcoats, that are primarily bred for softness, often shows an "explosive" prey drive when they run into game. I do not know what happens in their brain but probably they get an sudden and too huge injection of adrenalin, nor-adrenalin, hormones and whatever chemicals that affect their behaviour, what  the stimuli, like a bolting rabbit, calls for. A well-known cocker breeder in Sweden once told me when I asked him what to expect from his dogs and at what age, to "not expect much before the age of 2 years".
 
I have no idea of what Don's springer puppy is up to and cant comment his dog.
 
However I have been critical to the breeding practice of the Swedish springers, continuously imported from UK,  during many years, no attention has been paid to the nerve stability and boldness of the dogs but only the number of FTCH's and FTW's in the pedigree has been important. Hence most of our spaniels are now so soft so they can be somewhat productive in the hands of true experts and the ordinary hunter has little use for them.  I have thought I have been alone in my critics but recently I have got a hint that from UK similar opinions are raised.
 
Miss "The Peep" Sophie, that I had for one year, showed similar "explosive" behaviour and hence I handed her forward to an expert in spaniels. There she performs well. Details can be found on our website, search for "The Miss Sophie Story" .
 
 The strong prey drive is basically a very good and very desirable characteristic in our gundogs provided it is combined with other good characteristics and a firm and consistent hand that calls for a lot of hard work from the owner of the dog. I prefer a rather hard, headstrong and bold, but still balanced dog, to a soft dog that has to be handled with ultimate care in every situation and that is not only easy to train to some degree but also easy to spoil unless given truckloads of patience.
 
 Well, this is how I think about the subject. Generally we get lazy and lazy and in order to compensate for that we breed dogs that are softer and hence, as we think, easier to train. In reality it is not that easy... There is no substitute for cubic inch..., sorry, for hard work :-))
 
Torsti
 
 
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
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