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Subject: Re: [working-gundog] backing and competition in versatile dogs

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cwalt

MH
Posts:180

07/09/2007 9:58 AM
> I agree with much of what you said except I've watched folks produce > stylish, > competently honoring dogs (including some v-dogs) with birds present. > Perhaps their success has to do with details of the particular technique > used > training a stand to sight of pointing dog or, more likely, it is more > deeply imbedded > in the overall program they use to develop all aspects of manners on > birds. > Jere ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Success with these methods depends mostly on the type of pointing dog rather than the details of the training. The use of birds in training stylish backing is successful with intense upland pointing dogs such as English pointers, setters, Ft GSPs and GWPs. These dogs don't have a great interest in retrieving birds so they are more ready to point (or to back with style) than are the average hunting versatiles with a strong desire to retrieve. Natural retrieving is more competitive than natural pointing and so retrieving dogs have a greater tendency to compete for the birds and stealing points is a more significant problem with wirehairs than it is with English setters. If I train backing with birds in remote release cages the English pointers will learn to back with style, if I do the same thing with a Griffon or Drahthaar point stealing is the most likely result. The pointing Labradors you noted in your comments about 'group' pointing are exemplary of this for they have a strong competitive tendency to retrieve and a strong tendency to join in on gang pointing. Since there are so many German shorthairs that have been bred for field trials you can train many of these GSPs with a bird but other GSPs that retrieve regularly are much harder to train with birds. My point is that to weigh contrasting training arguments you have to evaluate the breed lines of the dogs in question, contrasting arguments may both be correct. Training has to be adapted to the proclivities of the dogs you are working with and there are significant differences between what works with strong pointing instinct dogs and what works with competitive retrieving and pointing dogs. In training versatiles one size doesn't fit all no matter what the navhda philosophy says about it. Cj

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