|
| Author |
Messages |
|
rospigan
MH
Posts:372
 |
| 11/05/2007 10:51 AM |
|
|
A friend of mine, a keen hunter, said a few days
ago that "There are too few weekends in the autumn!". I am tempted to agree with
him even though I am for the time being free to do what I want. Still I cant
fish with nets during the mid-weeks since I have no-one who can row. Maud works
during daytime when we still have some light and I could get the nets out alone,
no problem. However the sea-bottom outside our house is full of old twiggs, logs
and stones and when taking up the nets there must be full control of the boat,
otherwise the nets will stick to something and be damaged.
For the moment I cant try to shoot roe-deer since
we are going to the Gotland island to hunt pheasants next Friday and if I shoot
a deer now it would have to hang until next tuesday in my workshop and it is too
warm there. My old second hand fridge that I used for hanging game broke down
and I have not found another of suitable height. One action hampers another
action and in the end you shoot less than you could do if there was more
weekends in the autumn!
Last Friday to Sunday we had one of Mauds hunting
pals at visit. She has two ES bitches, mother and daughter, just like us. Just
like Foxy and Briz they seemed to be from different worlds. Mothers mentally
strong and in all ways pleasant. Daughters have a peculiar mentality and are
difficult to understand.
So what is most similar with the two
daughters? Well, both of them have Swedish bred mothers and Norwegian FTCHs as
fathers!
I have strongly started to doubt field trials as a
mean of select breeding animals!
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
|
|
|
|
mcotton
MH
Posts:87
|
| 11/05/2007 11:58 AM |
|
|
What are the siblings like who didn't get raised
with their mum Torsti?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 6:39
AM
Subject: [working-gundog] Weekends
Last Friday to Sunday we had one of Mauds hunting
pals at visit. She has two ES bitches, mother and daughter, just like us. Just
like Foxy and Briz they seemed to be from different worlds. Mothers mentally
strong and in all ways pleasant. Daughters have a peculiar mentality and are
difficult to understand.
So what is most similar with the two
daughters? Well, both of them have Swedish bred mothers and Norwegian FTCHs as
fathers!
I have strongly started to doubt field trials as
a mean of select breeding animals!
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net
|
|
|
|
|
soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
|
| 11/05/2007 1:11 PM |
|
Re: [working-gundog] Weekends
I have strongly started to doubt field trials as a mean of select breeding animals!
I tend to agree!
Sonia
Torsti
|
|
|
|
|
robclayau
JH
Posts:36
|
| 11/05/2007 6:23 PM |
|
There aren't enough weekends at anytime of the year for me, but
particularly as you say in Autumn. It's Spring here and we've finally
gotten some much needed rain, about 150mm in the last 3 weeks. Amazing
how quickly the grass turns green, the frogs emerge from their burrows
and birds fly in. I've seen a number of kingfishers in the last few
days and this morning saw a hardhead (a type of duck that's not
generally around here). Wood ducks and black duck were plentiful during
yesterday's walk and we also saw a hare and peregrine falcon last
night. What a different a bit of rain can make!!
With regard to field trials - I'd agree they aren't perfect, but where
else do you get to put such a variety of dogs down in the same paddock
on the same day and see what they've got? Perhaps you're not really
looking for a field trial type of dog, but would instead prefer a
hunting dog? If you've got a bitch you really like and would like to
produce more dogs of a similar type, why would you outcross, no matter
if the out cross is to a field trial champion or not? Surely a better
approach would be to line breed back to the stock whose traits you
admire/desire?
I think field trial are a great way to get a look at a wide variety of
dogs, you can certainly eliminate many that you're not interested in,
and refine your search down to the few that impress.
Rob
Maud & Torsti wrote:
A friend of mine, a keen hunter,
said a few days ago that "There are too few weekends in the autumn!". I
am tempted to agree with him even though I am for the time being free
to do what I want. Still I cant fish with nets during the mid-weeks
since I have no-one who can row. Maud works during daytime when we
still have some light and I could get the nets out alone, no problem.
However the sea-bottom outside our house is full of old twiggs, logs
and stones and when taking up the nets there must be full control of
the boat, otherwise the nets will stick to something and be damaged.
For the moment I cant try to shoot
roe-deer since we are going to the Gotland island to hunt pheasants
next Friday and if I shoot a deer now it would have to hang until next
tuesday in my workshop and it is too warm there. My old second hand
fridge that I used for hanging game broke down and I have not found
another of suitable height. One action hampers another action and in
the end you shoot less than you could do if there was more weekends in
the autumn!
Last Friday to Sunday we had one of
Mauds hunting pals at visit. She has two ES bitches, mother and
daughter, just like us. Just like Foxy and Briz they seemed to be from
different worlds. Mothers mentally strong and in all ways pleasant.
Daughters have a peculiar mentality and are difficult to understand.
So what is most similar with the two
daughters? Well, both of them have Swedish bred mothers and Norwegian
FTCHs as fathers!
I have strongly started to doubt
field trials as a mean of select breeding animals!
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
|
|
|
|
|
rospigan
MH
Posts:372
|
| 11/06/2007 3:38 AM |
|
Marg wrote:
>>What are the siblings like who didn't get
raised with their mum Torsti?>>
If I remember correctly the owner of the mum said that the sisters to the
daughter are similar(nervous) but the males are a bit better.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
|
|
|
|
rospigan
MH
Posts:372
|
| 11/06/2007 3:40 AM |
|
|
>>>>I think field trial are a great way to get a look at a
wide variety of dogs, you can certainly eliminate many that you're not
interested in, and refine your search down to the few that
impress.
Rob>>>
Two dogs can do the same performance in a trial.
They have been trained to do the same thing. The only thing that has been proved
is that they have a natural ability to hunt and that they are trainable. So
far everything is OK.
Lets say that one of them is a soft and easy to
handle male while the other one is a bold, independent and a bit hard-headed
bitch. They are mentally totally different.
What happens if you breed from these two
animals? Do you or do you not get a litter of puppies that can be considered as
mental mongrels? Would it not be better to breed soft to soft and hard to hard
in order to get a litter with an even (similar) mentality and that way avoid
some of the lottery that breeding always is?
I know very little about this DNA stuff but I have
seen enough of the "soft to hard" breeding to become suspicious to the practice.
Would "hard to hard" breeding produce dogs that are even harder? Would "soft to
soft" produce dogs that are even softer?
What if you among the FTCH.s selected a Sir and a
Dame that are mentally very similar instead of selecting the dogs that have the
greatest number of wins and breed from them without any consideration to
possible huge differences in mentality? Would you expect litters that are more
even in mentality if the parents have about the same mentality?
I know two successful breeders, Gordon and Labs,
who think about the mentality of the parents more than they think about
the field trials merits. The merits should be there but they are not given
any dominating value. They constantly breed litters that are more even than the
average.
However, since they do not breed all gundogs in
Sweden we will continue to see a great variation of mentality within most
litters. I just wonder how long it has to take before the good practice
they use will be spread among all of us "kitchen breeders"????
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
|
|
|
|
robclayau
JH
Posts:36
|
| 11/06/2007 10:06 PM |
|
Maud & Torsti wrote:
>>>>I
think field trial are a great way to get a look at a wide variety of
dogs, you can certainly eliminate many that you're not interested in,
and refine your search down to the few that impress.
Rob>>>
Two dogs can do the same performance
in a trial. They have been trained to do the same thing. The only thing
that has been proved is that they have a natural ability to hunt and
that they are trainable. So far everything is OK.
Dogs are trained to do the same thing at a trial, use the wind, find
birds, flush and retrieve birds (depending on the trial/country), but
the way they do it is different. How well they do those things depends
on the ability of the dog, how well it was trained and the luck of the
day. It's possible to get clues about what parts of the dogs
performance is natural ability and what has been trained. Yes the dog
does the work, but how does it do it, reluctantly or with great
enthusiasm. What sort of rapport does the dog have with the handler, is
the dog attuned to the handlers every move, or does it require
something more significant to get the dogs attention? Is the dog
hunting as part of a team, or is it out there finding birds for itself?
etc.
Lets say that one of them is a soft
and easy to handle male while the other one is a bold, independent and
a bit hard-headed bitch. They are mentally totally different.
It's good to have such diversity as some trainers prefer softer
dogs, while others are better suited to the bolder type
What happens if you breed from these
two animals? Do you or do you not get a litter of puppies that can be
considered as mental mongrels? Would it not be better to breed soft to
soft and hard to hard in order to get a litter with an even (similar)
mentality and that way avoid some of the lottery that breeding always
is?
What happens - who knows? If it's a genetic out cross then I'd
expect great diversity within the litter, both physically and
mentally. I don't think the pups are inclined to be mentally (or
physically) unstable, just that there will be great diversity within
the litter. I agree it would be better to line breed, choosing dogs of
a similar genetic background, and perhaps a more similar mental
attitude.
I know very little about this DNA
stuff but I have seen enough of the "soft to hard" breeding to become
suspicious to the practice. Would "hard to hard" breeding produce dogs
that are even harder? Would "soft to soft" produce dogs that are even
softer?
No, not in my opinion. In humans breeding two geniuses doesn't mean
their children will be even more intelligent than either parent.
Breeding two small dogs doesn't mean all the pups will be even smaller.
Mental traits like "hard" and "soft" are also dependent on environment.
They are also very relative terms, soft to some trainers might be a
hard-headed SOB to others.
What if you among the FTCH.s
selected a Sir and a Dame that are mentally very similar instead of
selecting the dogs that have the greatest number of wins and breed from
them without any consideration to possible huge differences in
mentality? Would you expect litters that are more even in mentality if
the parents have about the same mentality?
Unless you're following a careful line breeding program then you can
always expect great mental and physical diversity. Selecting sire and
dam based solely on the number of field trials wins is a poor breeding
strategy IMO.
I know two successful breeders,
Gordon and Labs, who think about the mentality of the parents more
than they think about the field trials merits. The merits should be
there but they are not given any dominating value. They constantly
breed litters that are more even than the average.
Do they think only about the mentality or do they think about the
mentality and the genetics? Are they consistently out cross breeding
mentally suitable dogs, or are they line breeding, and within the
available pool that could be used for the line breeding, selecting
individuals with desirable mental characteristics?
However, since they do not breed all
gundogs in Sweden we will continue to see a great variation of
mentality within most litters. I just wonder how long it has to take
before the good practice they use will be spread among all of us
"kitchen breeders"????
I think the greatest success will always go to those who carefully
consider the genotype, phenotype and performance of the sire and dam
they mate.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
|
|
|
|
|
rospigan
MH
Posts:372
|
| 11/08/2007 10:40 AM |
|
|
Rob wrote:
>>Unless you're following a
careful line breeding program then you can always expect great mental and
physical diversity. Selecting sire and dam based solely on the number of field
trials wins is a poor breeding strategy IMO. >>>
I agree!
However the reality is that the FT-wins are getting too much attention. Many
breeders believe that there must be a great number of FTW.s in the pedigree of
the puppy to get it sold. Unfortunately they are right!
>>>Do
they think only about the mentality or do they think about the mentality and the
genetics? Are they consistently out cross breeding mentally suitable dogs, or
are they line breeding, and within the available pool that could be used for the
line breeding, selecting individuals with desirable mental
characteristics?>>>
I believe the great majority pay most
attention to the field trial merits - in order to get the puppies sold. There is
a certain disorder when breeding ES. There are too many ES:s with a poor nerve
stability. There are also too many stressed working spaniels. Some breeds do
better than others. Does it mean that they are better breeds or preferred by
wiser people? There are too many wills and there are too many diverting opinions
about what a good breeding animal is. Sometimes you may wonder if it is a
question of power or breeding!
>>>I think the greatest success
will always go to those who carefully consider the genotype, phenotype and
performance of the sire and dam they mate.>>>
I agree! Around 40
years ago both the Scandinavian GS and IS were very near a total collapse
as working gundogs. In order to save the breeds they had to start to think
rationally when breeding. The Scandinavian ES has never collapsed as a gundog.
Maybe there must be a real crisis before any change in thinking can
come?
Back to the subject line: Our weekend on the
Gotland island hunting pheasants had to be cancelled. Our host, who has run in
the mountains and on the field his entire life together with birddogs, has to
operate his knee. The date for the operation was today set for tomorrow, of all
the 365 possible days around the year! The next opportunity would have been in
February! Well, we will go there later when his knee is fit again.
There are too few weekends in the autumn but at
least we can fish white-fish (lavaret) with nets just outside our house this
weekend when Maud is free to row the boat.
Torsti Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for
you. Ask what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
|
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.7
|
You must be logged in to use this module.
|
 |
Membership: |
 |
Latest:
CliffBaill |
 |
New Today:
0 |
 |
New Yesterday:
0 |
 |
Overall:
3204 |
 |
People Online: |
 |
Visitors:
106 |
 |
Members:
0 |
 |
Total:
106 |
Online Now:
|
|
|
|
|