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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 07/10/2009 12:40 AM |
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I got this privately but it could be to
some use for some other list member also:
>>>I must say there is a big
difference between having a Labrador and a GSP and although I have a major
problem with the Lab in which he will not bring the dummy to hand in a class but
will ALWAYS bring it to hand anywhere else, he is a very enthusiastic retriever
and easier to train on the whole. >>>
We use to have folks with similar problems
at our gundog obedience classes. They say the dog is calm and sweet at home or
some other places but "forgets" all that at the class. The problem is most of
the time the same: "part time leadership". That is that the dog is obedient as
long it is the best thing it can do for the moment, it gets the most amusement
from being obedient since there is nothing else that is more fun to do - or it
feels that it is safe and comfortable to obey you.
It is difficult to make a diagnose at a
distance but I am rather sure that there is something in your mental state or
body language that changes when you attend the class. Dogs are very sensitive to
such things. Hence the young dog must be basic obedience trained in as many
different situations as one can imagine and then a few more. That will make it
to understand that the rules are valid and must be obeyed everywhere and always.
Read my last post to the wgd list about
consciousness of ones body control. I for ex. could have sweared with my
hand on my grand fathers bones that I did not "dip" the muzzles of my shotgun
when I mounted it to the shoulder. Well, when I saw myself shooting in the video
I had to admit that I was wrong!
There must be something in your body
language or in the pitch of your voice that changes when you perform in
the front of the class. Maybe you get nervous or something. I know what it
means, I used to become very nervous at field trials before I got used to them.
When I work someone else's dog at the front of the obedience class I do not get
nervous because I know that the audience do not know what to expect of the
outcome of my work and that the slightest improvement in the dog will
be appreciated.
When I show particular things to the
class with our own dogs I become a bit nervous because I know the class will
expect some outstanding performance from the instructors dog. Usually some
detail in my show goes wrong. Lately I have turned this into an advantage and explained
that not even the instructors dog is perfect, nor is the instructor, and then
explained the reason (I am a bit tense and the dog senses it) and that we must
not expect the dog to work like a robot but always remember that it is a
living creature and if we want to improve it we must improve our selves first.
Performance anxiety is your worst enemy!
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel www.rospigan.net "If you pick up a
starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the
principal difference between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 07/10/2009 2:39 AM |
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I forgot to mention what to do. At the class: Put a long line
on the dog. Have it sit and put a dummy in its mouth. Walk away some short
distance to start with, loosely holding the line. Call the dog in with the
normal command. If it comes but hesitates near you you can now both encourage it
with your voice and simultaneously gently pull it to you with the line. If it
drops the dummy, then it is in my opinion a definite sign telling that the dog
has not understood the "fetch" command. In that case the whole procedure of
fetch training must be repeated, particularly the part that to the dog means
"Hold! No matter what happens around me I must hold the dummy until I am allowed
by another command to drop it to hand".
If the dog on the other hand can be pulled in with the line,
without dropping the dummy, then praise it cordially. Repeat the exercise until
the dog comes without you having to pull the line or it drops the dummy. You can
then go on to do it again, from a sitting position, without a line. Then throw
the dummy a short distance with the dog sitting beside of you. Let it wait
for a looong second, until it takes eye contact with you, not before then give
it the fetch command. Should it work now, make the distances longer and longer,
still sending the dog from you side. When that works OK, then sit the dog a
short distance from you, throw the dummy in some other direction and again, when
the dog takes eye contact with you, send it to fetch. Do all this in front of
the class, they might learn something from it ;.))
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel www.rospigan.net "If you pick up a
starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the
principal difference between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 8:21 AM
Subject: [working-gundog] Dog
problems
I got this privately but it could be to
some use for some other list member also:
>>>I must say there is a big
difference between having a Labrador and a GSP and although I have a major
problem with the Lab in which he will not bring the dummy to hand in a class
but will ALWAYS bring it to hand anywhere else, he is a very enthusiastic
retriever and easier to train on the
whole. >>>
We use to have folks with similar
problems at our gundog obedience classes. They say the dog is calm and sweet
at home or some other places but "forgets" all that at the class. The problem
is most of the time the same: "part time leadership". That is that the dog is
obedient as long it is the best thing it can do for the moment, it gets the
most amusement from being obedient since there is nothing else that is more
fun to do - or it feels that it is safe and comfortable to obey you.
It is difficult to make a diagnose at a
distance but I am rather sure that there is something in your mental state or
body language that changes when you attend the class. Dogs are very sensitive
to such things. Hence the young dog must be basic obedience trained in as many
different situations as one can imagine and then a few more. That will make it
to understand that the rules are valid and must be obeyed everywhere and
always.
Read my last post to the wgd list about
consciousness of ones body control. I for ex. could have sweared with my
hand on my grand fathers bones that I did not "dip" the muzzles of my shotgun
when I mounted it to the shoulder. Well, when I saw myself shooting in the
video I had to admit that I was wrong!
There must be something in your body
language or in the pitch of your voice that changes when you perform in
the front of the class. Maybe you get nervous or something. I know what it
means, I used to become very nervous at field trials before I got used to
them. When I work someone else's dog at the front of the obedience class I do
not get nervous because I know that the audience do not know what to expect of
the outcome of my work and that the slightest improvement in the
dog will be appreciated.
When I show particular things to
the class with our own dogs I become a bit nervous because I know the class
will expect some outstanding performance from the instructors dog. Usually
some detail in my show goes wrong. Lately I have turned this into an advantage and explained
that not even the instructors dog is perfect, nor is the instructor, and then
explained the reason (I am a bit tense and the dog senses it) and that we must
not expect the dog to work like a robot but always remember that it is a
living creature and if we want to improve it we must improve our selves first.
Performance anxiety is your worst enemy!
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel www.rospigan.net "If you pick up a
starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the
principal difference between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 07/10/2009 5:56 AM |
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| Torsti-
I don't think you could have given better advice.
I run into this when demo'ing brood stock at the kennel: if ANYTHING has
changed since the dog was proofed, i.e. there is a spectator: then all
rules are off and I am not to presume a quality performance.... life
with a senscient
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Maud & Torsti wrote:
> I forgot to mention what to do. At the class: Put a long line on the
> dog. Have it sit and put a dummy in its mouth. Walk away some short
> distance to start with, loosely holding the line. Call the dog in with
> the normal command. If it comes but hesitates near you you can now
> both encourage it with your voice and simultaneously gently pull it to
> you with the line. If it drops the dummy, then it is in my opinion a
> definite sign telling that the dog has not understood the "fetch"
> command. In that case the whole procedure of fetch training must be
> repeated, particularly the part that to the dog means "Hold! No matter
> what happens around me I must hold the dummy until I am allowed by
> another command to drop it to hand".
>
> If the dog on the other hand can be pulled in with the line, without
> dropping the dummy, then praise it cordially. Repeat the exercise
> until the dog comes without you having to pull the line or it drops
> the dummy. You can then go on to do it again, from a sitting position,
> without a line. Then throw the dummy a short distance with the dog
> sitting beside of you. Let it wait for a looong second, until it takes
> eye contact with you, not before then give it the fetch command.
> Should it work now, make the distances longer and longer, still
> sending the dog from you side. When that works OK, then sit the dog a
> short distance from you, throw the dummy in some other direction and
> again, when the dog takes eye contact with you, send it to fetch. Do
> all this in front of the class, they might learn something from it ;.))
>
> Torsti
> Borta Med Vindens Kennel
> www.rospigan.net
> "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
> he will not bite you; that is the principal difference
> between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Maud & Torsti
> *To:* working-gundog@web.whc.net
> *Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2009 8:21 AM
> *Subject:* [working-gundog] Dog problems
>
> I got this privately but it could be to some use for some other
> list member also:
>
> >>>I must say there is a big difference between having a Labrador
> and a GSP and although I have a major problem with the Lab in
> which he will not bring the dummy to hand in a class but will
> ALWAYS bring it to hand anywhere else, he is a very enthusiastic
> retriever and easier to train on the whole. >>>
>
> We use to have folks with similar problems at our gundog obedience
> classes. They say the dog is calm and sweet at home or some other
> places but "forgets" all that at the class. The problem is most of
> the time the same: "part time leadership". That is that the dog is
> obedient as long it is the best thing it can do for the moment, it
> gets the most amusement from being obedient since there is nothing
> else that is more fun to do - or it feels that it is safe and
> comfortable to obey you.
>
> It is difficult to make a diagnose at a distance but I am rather
> sure that there is something in your mental state or body language
> that changes when you attend the class. Dogs are very sensitive to
> such things. Hence the young dog must be basic obedience trained
> in as many different situations as one can imagine and then a few
> more. That will make it to understand that the rules are valid and
> must be obeyed everywhere and always.
>
> Read my last post to the wgd list about consciousness of ones body
> control. I for ex. could have sweared with my hand on my grand
> fathers bones that I did not "dip" the muzzles of my shotgun when
> I mounted it to the shoulder. Well, when I saw myself shooting in
> the video I had to admit that I was wrong!
>
> There must be something in your body language or in the pitch of
> your voice that changes when you perform in the front of the
> class. Maybe you get nervous or something. I know what it means, I
> used to become very nervous at field trials before I got used to
> them. When I work someone else's dog at the front of the obedience
> class I do not get nervous because I know that the audience do not
> know what to expect of the outcome of my work and that the
> slightest improvement in the dog will be appreciated.
>
> When I show particular things to the class with our own dogs I
> become a bit nervous because I know the class will expect some
> outstanding performance from the instructors dog. Usually some
> detail in my show goes wrong. Lately I have turned this into an
> advantage and explained that not even the instructors dog is
> perfect, nor is the instructor, and then explained the reason (I
> am a bit tense and the dog senses it) and that we must not expect
> the dog to work like a robot but always remember that it is a
> living creature and if we want to improve it we must improve our
> selves first. Performance anxiety is your worst enemy!
>
> Torsti
> Borta Med Vindens Kennel
> www.rospigan.net
> "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
> he will not bite you; that is the principal difference
> between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
>
> |
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 07/10/2009 1:26 PM |
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>>>Torsti-
I don't think you could
have given better advice.
I run into this when demo'ing brood stock at the
kennel: if ANYTHING has
changed since the dog was proofed, i.e. there is a
spectator: then all
rules are off and I am not to presume a quality
performance.... life
with a senscient
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
>>>
Hello Stu!
My late Springer had such a strong drive to
do any work she was offered, so she did not notice too much whether I was
nervous or not, but otherwise all other dogs we have had has been strongly
affected by our mental state.
Give a pat to your family and dogs from me, will
you?
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel www.rospigan.net "If you pick up a
starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the
principal difference between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
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soniaskinner1
SH
Posts:44
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| 07/11/2009 10:16 AM |
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Re: [working-gundog] Dog problems
Hello Torsti,
Thank you for your thoughts on my problem. I think my dog will not bring the retrieve back in company because he is “showing off” in front of the other dogs and people and also there is an element of possessiveness. He also would go to the trainer with the dummy and walk round and round the trainer but would not give the dummy up. I suppose one good thing about him is NEVER drops the dummy, I almost wish he would, come to me and drop, could do something about that! My thinking is that he was disobedient, as he knows how to retrieve and how to sit in front with a good present and does it 100% with me alone and now will do it with the “man with the ESS” who I walk with once a week, he even will come through them to me to present. I decided it was rank disobedience and booked a lesson with an obedience trainer, and of course he didn’t put a foot wrong!
I have already had him on a long line in one class, the other class won’t let me do it! My thinking was it was best to put him on a long line so that he would bring the retrieve, rather than let him carry on with the behaviour I don’t want. If I put him on the long line and don’t even hold it he will return and present beautifully. With your appreciated words of advice I will insist I do it in the second class and will do it as you suggest.
One training session, which isn’t a formal class, it would be impossible to have him on a line as he is sent down a field, over a fence, over the lake, out the other side, over another fence and up the far field for the retrieve. It is so maddening that he can do fantastic retrieves but I cannot move on until he presents in public. In this training session he was beginning to retrieve to hand when it was just Geoff and me doing them, but due to other commitments of the others, I haven’t been for the last four weeks.
Thanks again Torsti, you have given me the strength to insist I use the long line and I will follow your instructions.
Hope you enjoy the summer.
Bestest,
Sonia
On 10/7/09 09:24, "Maud & Torsti" wrote:
I forgot to mention what to do. At the class: Put a long line on the dog. Have it sit and put a dummy in its mouth. Walk away some short distance to start with, loosely holding the line. Call the dog in with the normal command. If it comes but hesitates near you you can now both encourage it with your voice and simultaneously gently pull it to you with the line. If it drops the dummy, then it is in my opinion a definite sign telling that the dog has not understood the "fetch" command. In that case the whole procedure of fetch training must be repeated, particularly the part that to the dog means "Hold! No matter what happens around me I must hold the dummy until I am allowed by another command to drop it to hand".
If the dog on the other hand can be pulled in with the line, without dropping the dummy, then praise it cordially. Repeat the exercise until the dog comes without you having to pull the line or it drops the dummy. You can then go on to do it again, from a sitting position, without a line. Then throw the dummy a short distance with the dog sitting beside of you. Let it wait for a looong second, until it takes eye contact with you, not before then give it the fetch command. Should it work now, make the distances longer and longer, still sending the dog from you side. When that works OK, then sit the dog a short distance from you, throw the dummy in some other direction and again, when the dog takes eye contact with you, send it to fetch. Do all this in front of the class, they might learn something from it ;.))
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
www.rospigan.net
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
he will not bite you; that is the principal difference
between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 07/11/2009 10:16 AM |
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Re: [working-gundog] Dog problems
Sonia wrote:
>>>I have already had him on a long line
in one class, the other class wont let me do it!>>>
>>>One training session, which
isnt a formal class, it would be impossible to have him on a line as he is sent
down a field, over a fence, over the lake, out the other side, over another
fence and up the far field for the retrieve. It is so maddening that he
can do fantastic retrieves but I cannot move on until he presents in
public. In this training session he was beginning to retrieve to hand when
it was just Geoff and me doing them, but due to other commitments of the others,
I havent been for the last four weeks.>>>
I can smell political correctness in the modern retriever training methods.
The dog has obviously adopted the running around you and the trainer with the
dummy as it's way of demonstrating power and control. Such problems are far from
uncommon here too, particularly with retrievers. It's not the dog's fault but
the training methods that have changed and become more "psychological" in order
to be fully accepted by the ignorant public and above all the even more ignorant
and politically correct media. I believe it was last year when we had a young
Labrador that according to the owner was so soft and fragile so I was not even
allowed to pat it! I felt cold frogs jumping on my back and wondered what the
heck they are doing in my class? Then again, I never saw her since then.
I also blame the modern training methods for the deteriation of the working
springer spaniel in to very soft and stressful dogs. Instead of learning how to
train and manage mentally strong dogs, the dogs are bred softer and softer so
that they can be trained with modern "soft" methods. The modern soft methods are
actually not "soft" at all but rather cruel to the animal. They deprive the
dog of the pack leader that every pack animal deserves and the dog, bred soft
and cautious, have to take difficult decisions that it is not mentally strong
enough to take without becoming anxious. The dog suffers but the ignorant media
cheers since they have once again managed to control other peoples life and way
of thinking, they have demonstrated power and control and that is, quite
contrary to what they claim that is their aim, their prime purpose.
Knowledge and science matter little or nothing to them.
If the media wanted to do some good for animal well-fare they could stop
the imbecile and cruel handling of animals for slaughter. It does not take a lot
of bright imagination that the best thing one could do is to forbid the removal
of any slaughter animal from the farm it was bred and raised in, alive. That
would be the most merciful way to produce good beef, and the quality of the beef
would also improve enormously. In the Swedish deer farms the deer are
usually driven into particular corrals before being killed. Much better that the
treatment of cattle, sheep, chickens and pigs, but still with an element of
stress . A few deer farmers who want the produce the best meat on the
market shoot the deer in the neck or head with a high speed, small calibre
rifle, when they are peacefully grazing. They die instantly without any stress
at all and the meat retains a fantastic taste, I know, I have had such deer in
our freezer.
Of course it is not a very rational or economical way
of slaughtering, compared to herding the animals onto trucks and
drive them to a slaughterhouse and then painfully kill the animals that
have not yet died of stress, with gas or electricity. The profit from such meat
is probably higher and the doubtful substance they produce and call "beef" will
be digested by a poor, ignorant public that do not know better. But who
says that someone else's profit is more important to me than the quality and
taste, and above all the method of production of the food
on my plate?
There is something for the media to tamper with, but who are they facing
now as their enemy? They are facing the entire market, the investors, the global
food industry, and the chances for the media to demonstrate power and control is
almost equal to zero! Hence they instead attack small groups of ignorant
and defenceless animal owners, here they can celebrate one triumph after
another, without risking to loose anything.
Since the politicians are so incredibly dependent of the benevolence of the
media, they lack the power to change anything. They entire system is running in
a huge treadmill, wasting extreme quantities of energy without producing
anything of significance to animal well fare or anything else for that
matter.
Why doesn't the politically correct media attack those who train dogs for
duty like police dogs, lead dogs, bomb dogs, drug dogs and so on? Who on earth
would accept a police dog that runs in circles around its handler or starts to
play with a bomb? If it is politically correct to train them to implicit
obedience, what makes them so different so that state run duty is the only
purpose when dogs can be trained to obedience? Isn't that as much cruelty to
animals as any other consistent dog training?
Why can and must birddogs be trained to high obedience in order to
function? Why are retrievers so very different from any other dog so they must
be handled with silken gloves? How come a Labrador meant for some duty can be
trained to implicit obedience but the next one meant for field work can not be
trained to such perfection? Why must they be deprived of a strong
packleader when we grudge it to many other sorts of dogs?
Print this Sonia, and show it to your trainer! Send him my
love  ))
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
www.rospigan.net
"If you pick up a
starving dog and make him prosperous,
he will not bite you; that is the
principal difference
between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 07/11/2009 10:16 AM |
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Re: [working-gundog] Dog problems
Thinking about it Sonia - since you say that your dog
never drop the dummy - there is a shortcut to fix the problem
behaviour. It is a very fast method, totally harmless to the dog but far from
politically correct. You need a handful of say 1/4 or 1/2 inch steel chain, or a
plastic bag, the size you carry food in from the grocery store, filled with 5 -
6 - 7 empty beer cans. Have someone at the class, the trainer perhaps,
throw the chain or bag from behind, so that the dog do not see the throw, on the
dogs back as soon as it starts circling around you. If you use the bag with the
beer cans it is not needed to hit the dog with it, just hit the ground
close to the dog, the rattle of the cans in the bag is enough to discourage the
dog from playing clown. As soon as the dog has noticed the rattle, call it in
again and praise when it has come to you.
If you still think that the chain or bag can hurt the dog,
have someone throw them at you and you will be convinced they do not harm the
dog. They must of course not hit the dogs head - the rear
end is the best part to sight at.
This will cure the dog within a few repetitions. If the
behaviour is very deeply established during a long time, then better be prepared
to instantly repeat should the dog forget the lesson after
a few days, weeks or months. In other words keep the chain in your pocket for
some time. Remember that you can not throw the chain but someone else has to do
it, preferably when the dog cant see the throw. It could take some planning and
directing.
The method is used to cure all sorts of unwanted
behaviour in company dogs since it does not require any effort to learn anything
about obedience and leadership, from the owner. I have used it now and then
with very spoiled gundogs also, in order to give the owner the chance to
get a decent start with ordinary obedience training and it works perfectly
well.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
www.rospigan.net
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
he will
not bite you; that is the principal difference
between a dog and a man."
/Mark Twain
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 07/11/2009 1:09 PM |
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| You could also try a motivational method - in which you show the dog it CANNOT get
another retrieve without returning all the way to you and properly presenting the
retrieved object.
I may have written on this subject here earlier.
Jere
> Re: [working-gundog] Dog problemsThinking about it Sonia - since you say that your
> dog never drop the dummy - there is a shortcut to fix the problem behaviour. It is
> a very fast method, totally harmless to the dog but far from politically correct.
> You need a handful of say 1/4 or 1/2 inch steel chain, or a plastic bag, the size
> you carry food in from the grocery store, filled with 5 - 6 - 7 empty beer cans.
> Have someone at the class, the trainer perhaps, throw the chain or bag from behind,
> so that the dog do not see the throw, on the dogs back as soon as it starts
> circling around you. If you use the bag with the beer cans it is not needed to hit
> the dog with it, just hit the ground close to the dog, the rattle of the cans in
> the bag is enough to discourage the dog from playing clown. As soon as the dog has
> noticed the rattle, call it in again and praise when it has come to you.
>
> If you still think that the chain or bag can hurt the dog, have someone throw them
> at you and you will be convinced they do not harm the dog. They must of course not
> hit the dogs head - the rear end is the best part to sight at.
>
> This will cure the dog within a few repetitions. If the behaviour is very deeply
> established during a long time, then better be prepared to instantly repeat should
> the dog forget the lesson after a few days, weeks or months. In other words keep
> the chain in your pocket for some time. Remember that you can not throw the chain
> but someone else has to do it, preferably when the dog cant see the throw. It could
> take some planning and directing.
>
> The method is used to cure all sorts of unwanted behaviour in company dogs since
> it does not require any effort to learn anything about obedience and leadership,
> from the owner. I have used it now and then with very spoiled gundogs also, in
> order to give the owner the chance to get a decent start with ordinary obedience
> training and it works perfectly well.
>
> Torsti
> Borta Med Vindens Kennel
> www.rospigan.net
> "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
> he will not bite you; that is the principal difference
> between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
>
>
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soniaskinner1
SH
Posts:44
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| 07/11/2009 1:11 PM |
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Re: [working-gundog] Dog problems
Excellent advice Torsti and it will be done.
Sonia
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soniaskinner1
SH
Posts:44
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| 07/12/2009 11:55 AM |
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I can certainly try that. At the last class at the water, the other dogs
did not want to fetch the dummies, spaniels were off hunting the ducks which
were swimming in profusion. So there were three dummies to retrieve, two of
which were very flat 4"x4" and difficult to see in the water and they had
floated away to quite some distance and Drift was sent to collect them.
Each one he brought to hand beautifully, shook, sat and then was sent again,
so there was an element of motivation there.
Afterwards we did a retrieve on dry land over a bridge and he started
playing around so we managed to cut his exit, I made him sit and took the
retrieve, put him on the lead, gave him a talking to as I walked him to the
car, put him in and went back to the class on my own, so denial of a second
retrieve.
The wretched dog is perfect with me, but a small light is that he now
retrieves to hand when I have the 'spaniel man' with me!
Sonia
On 11/7/09 19:55, "Jere Murray" wrote:
> You could also try a motivational method - in which you show the dog it CANNOT
> get
> another retrieve without returning all the way to you and properly presenting
> the
> retrieved object.
>
> I may have written on this subject here earlier.
>
> Jere
>
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soniaskinner1
SH
Posts:44
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| 07/12/2009 12:09 PM |
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Re: [working-gundog] Dog problems
Just to say at a great day retriever training and the dog brought the dummy back each time except the first time when I found a plastic bucket for sheep food, this was wanged at him and after that he was so much better!
Sonia
On 11/7/09 19:54, "Sonia Skinner" wrote:
Excellent advice Torsti and it will be done.
Sonia
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 07/12/2009 3:36 PM |
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| Sonia, How frequently do you work with Drift and for how long each time? Is he a
housedog?
Somehow I thought you had cured this issue with him a couple of years ago?
Correction, It may only have been on Marg's Yahoo group 'CanineBH' that I wrote
about the motivational approach. More recently I expanded on that on Maurice's
Yahoo group 'pointingdogs'
Jere
> I can certainly try that. At the last class at the water, the other dogs
> did not want to fetch the dummies, spaniels were off hunting the ducks which
> were swimming in profusion. So there were three dummies to retrieve, two of
> which were very flat 4"x4" and difficult to see in the water and they had
> floated away to quite some distance and Drift was sent to collect them.
> Each one he brought to hand beautifully, shook, sat and then was sent again,
> so there was an element of motivation there.
>
> Afterwards we did a retrieve on dry land over a bridge and he started
> playing around so we managed to cut his exit, I made him sit and took the
> retrieve, put him on the lead, gave him a talking to as I walked him to the
> car, put him in and went back to the class on my own, so denial of a second
> retrieve.
>
> The wretched dog is perfect with me, but a small light is that he now
> retrieves to hand when I have the 'spaniel man' with me!
>
> Sonia
>
>
> On 11/7/09 19:55, "Jere Murray" wrote:
>
>> You could also try a motivational method - in which you show the dog it CANNOT
>> get
>> another retrieve without returning all the way to you and properly presenting
>> the
>> retrieved object.
>>
>> I may have written on this subject here earlier.
>>
>> Jere
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greg
Posts:10
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| 07/12/2009 5:45 PM |
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| unsubscribe
-----Original Message-----
From: working-gundog-request@web.whc.net
[mailto:working-gundog-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Jere Murray
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 12:55 PM
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Dog problems
You could also try a motivational method - in which you show the dog it
CANNOT get
another retrieve without returning all the way to you and properly
presenting the
retrieved object.
I may have written on this subject here earlier.
Jere
> Re: [working-gundog] Dog problemsThinking about it Sonia - since you say
that your
> dog never drop the dummy - there is a shortcut to fix the problem
behaviour. It is
> a very fast method, totally harmless to the dog but far from politically
correct.
> You need a handful of say 1/4 or 1/2 inch steel chain, or a plastic bag,
the size
> you carry food in from the grocery store, filled with 5 - 6 - 7 empty beer
cans.
> Have someone at the class, the trainer perhaps, throw the chain or bag
from behind,
> so that the dog do not see the throw, on the dogs back as soon as it
starts
> circling around you. If you use the bag with the beer cans it is not
needed to hit
> the dog with it, just hit the ground close to the dog, the rattle of the
cans in
> the bag is enough to discourage the dog from playing clown. As soon as the
dog has
> noticed the rattle, call it in again and praise when it has come to you.
>
> If you still think that the chain or bag can hurt the dog, have someone
throw them
> at you and you will be convinced they do not harm the dog. They must of
course not
> hit the dogs head - the rear end is the best part to sight at.
>
> This will cure the dog within a few repetitions. If the behaviour is very
deeply
> established during a long time, then better be prepared to instantly
repeat should
> the dog forget the lesson after a few days, weeks or months. In other
words keep
> the chain in your pocket for some time. Remember that you can not throw
the chain
> but someone else has to do it, preferably when the dog cant see the throw.
It could
> take some planning and directing.
>
> The method is used to cure all sorts of unwanted behaviour in company
dogs since
> it does not require any effort to learn anything about obedience and
leadership,
> from the owner. I have used it now and then with very spoiled gundogs
also, in
> order to give the owner the chance to get a decent start with ordinary
obedience
> training and it works perfectly well.
>
> Torsti
> Borta Med Vindens Kennel
> www.rospigan.net
> "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
> he will not bite you; that is the principal difference
> between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
>
>
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greg
Posts:10
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| 07/12/2009 5:45 PM |
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Re: [working-gundog] Dog problems
unsub
From: working-gundog-request@web.whc.net
[mailto:working-gundog-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Sonia Skinner
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 12:54 PM
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Dog problems
Excellent advice Torsti and it will be done.
Sonia
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greg
Posts:10
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| 07/12/2009 5:45 PM |
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Re: [working-gundog] Dog problems
unsubscribe
From: working-gundog-request@web.whc.net
[mailto:working-gundog-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Maud &
Torsti
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 3:06 AM
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Dog problems
>>>I have already had him on a
long line in one class, the other class won’t let me do it!>>>
>>>One training session, which
isn’t a formal class, it would be impossible to have him on a line as he
is sent down a field, over a fence, over the lake, out the other side, over
another fence and up the far field for the retrieve. It is so maddening
that he can do fantastic retrieves but I cannot move on until he presents
in public. In this training session he was beginning to retrieve to hand
when it was just Geoff and me doing them, but due to other commitments of the
others, I haven’t been for the last four weeks.>>>
I
can smell political correctness in the modern retriever training methods. The
dog has obviously adopted the running around you and the trainer with the dummy
as it's way of demonstrating power and control. Such problems are far from
uncommon here too, particularly with retrievers. It's not the dog's fault but
the training methods that have changed and become more
"psychological" in order to be fully accepted by the ignorant public
and above all the even more ignorant and politically correct media. I believe
it was last year when we had a young Labrador that according to the owner was
so soft and fragile so I was not even allowed to pat it! I felt cold frogs
jumping on my back and wondered what the heck they are doing in my class? Then
again, I never saw her since then.
I
also blame the modern training methods for the deteriation of the working
springer spaniel in to very soft and stressful dogs. Instead of learning how to
train and manage mentally strong dogs, the dogs are bred softer and softer so
that they can be trained with modern "soft" methods. The modern soft
methods are actually not "soft" at all but rather cruel to
the animal. They deprive the dog of the pack leader that every pack animal
deserves and the dog, bred soft and cautious, have to take difficult decisions
that it is not mentally strong enough to take without becoming anxious. The dog
suffers but the ignorant media cheers since they have once again managed to
control other peoples life and way of thinking, they have demonstrated power
and control and that is, quite contrary to what they claim that is their aim,
their prime purpose. Knowledge and science matter little or nothing to
them.
If
the media wanted to do some good for animal well-fare they could stop the
imbecile and cruel handling of animals for slaughter. It does not take a lot of
bright imagination that the best thing one could do is to forbid the removal of
any slaughter animal from the farm it was bred and raised in, alive. That would
be the most merciful way to produce good beef, and the quality of the beef
would also improve enormously. In the Swedish deer farms the deer are
usually driven into particular corrals before being killed. Much better that
the treatment of cattle, sheep, chickens and pigs, but still with an element of
stress . A few deer farmers who want the produce the best meat on
the market shoot the deer in the neck or head with a high speed, small calibre
rifle, when they are peacefully grazing. They die instantly without any stress
at all and the meat retains a fantastic taste, I know, I have had such deer in
our freezer.
Of
course it is not a very rational or economical way
of slaughtering, compared to herding the animals onto trucks and
drive them to a slaughterhouse and then painfully kill the animals that
have not yet died of stress, with gas or electricity. The profit from such meat
is probably higher and the doubtful substance they produce and call
"beef" will be digested by a poor, ignorant public that do not
know better. But who says that someone else's profit is more important to me
than the quality and taste, and above all the method of
production of the food on my plate?
There
is something for the media to tamper with, but who are they facing now as their
enemy? They are facing the entire market, the investors, the global food
industry, and the chances for the media to demonstrate power and control is
almost equal to zero! Hence they instead attack small groups of ignorant
and defenceless animal owners, here they can celebrate one triumph after
another, without risking to loose anything.
Since
the politicians are so incredibly dependent of the benevolence of the media,
they lack the power to change anything. They entire system is running in a huge
treadmill, wasting extreme quantities of energy without producing anything of
significance to animal well fare or anything else for that matter.
Why
doesn't the politically correct media attack those who train dogs for duty like
police dogs, lead dogs, bomb dogs, drug dogs and so on? Who on earth would
accept a police dog that runs in circles around its handler or starts to play
with a bomb? If it is politically correct to train them to implicit obedience,
what makes them so different so that state run duty is the only purpose
when dogs can be trained to obedience? Isn't that as much cruelty to animals as
any other consistent dog training?
Why
can and must birddogs be trained to high obedience in order to function? Why
are retrievers so very different from any other dog so they must be handled
with silken gloves? How come a Labrador meant for some duty can be trained to
implicit obedience but the next one meant for field work can not be trained to
such perfection? Why must they be deprived of a strong packleader when we
grudge it to many other sorts of dogs?
Print
this Sonia, and show it to your trainer! Send him my love ))
Borta
Med Vindens Kennel
www.rospigan.net
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
he will not bite you; that is the principal difference
between a dog and a man." /Mark Twain
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lameduck
SH
Posts:44
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| 07/12/2009 10:01 PM |
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| I don't understand about politically correct. I don't really care. I tell
my groups, I say LOOK!!!! I've been censored. If I have Ladies, blacks or
democrats I'm not supposed to tell jokes. But a lab has two words in its
name. Labrador Retriever. So it is my belief that the first and most
important thing is retrieving. I start early and develope the desire to
retrieve by doing that and only that in the beginning. I don't do any
obedience for sometimes 5 or 6 months. I want my dogs to be balls to the
wall to retrieve. I want them insane to retrieve. Hand delivery usually
comes pretty naturally. BUT! I can fix that. I will and always do a nerve
hitch force fetch. I wouldn't want to force a dog tat wasn't already crazy
to retrieve. And then I teach the dog to come to me on the word HERE!!!
Here is a place. Right between my feet about where You would point your
finger to the ground. I want my dogs to come to me in front and sit and
then I swing them into the heel position from there. I want them to come
in and back into heel position so they don;t walk around me. Then when I
want to line them up I want them sitting perfectly at heel with my toe
pointing exactly where I want them to go. When I'm doing marks I want the
dog to go right to the area of the fall and get the bird. No hunting along
the way. If I line a dog to do a blind retrieve I don't want it hunting
along the way. I bought a dog that had a novice win in the UK in 1995 and
it took me two years to get that out of her system. I later ran a blind
that measure 6/10 of a mile and I had to stop her and give her a left hand
back 7 times and put her right on the bird with a big name sports writer
standing right behind me. I do use a long rope some but I have good luck
with the e-collar teaching HERE. You don't have to weld them to the ground
with one. You don't have to be abusive either. Just always do it the same.
Be consistant.
Ron
>
> Just to say at a great day retriever training and the dog brought the
> dummy
> back each time except the first time when I found a plastic bucket for
> sheep
> food, this was wanged at him and after that he was so much better!
>
> Sonia
>
>
> On 11/7/09 19:54, "Sonia Skinner" wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Excellent advice Torsti and it will be done.
>>
>> Sonia
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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greg
Posts:10
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| 07/12/2009 10:18 PM |
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| UNSUBSCRIBE
-----Original Message-----
From: working-gundog-request@web.whc.net
[mailto:working-gundog-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of
lameduck@lameduck.com
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 9:47 PM
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Dog problems
I don't understand about politically correct. I don't really care. I tell
my groups, I say LOOK!!!! I've been censored. If I have Ladies, blacks or
democrats I'm not supposed to tell jokes. But a lab has two words in its
name. Labrador Retriever. So it is my belief that the first and most
important thing is retrieving. I start early and develope the desire to
retrieve by doing that and only that in the beginning. I don't do any
obedience for sometimes 5 or 6 months. I want my dogs to be balls to the
wall to retrieve. I want them insane to retrieve. Hand delivery usually
comes pretty naturally. BUT! I can fix that. I will and always do a nerve
hitch force fetch. I wouldn't want to force a dog tat wasn't already crazy
to retrieve. And then I teach the dog to come to me on the word HERE!!!
Here is a place. Right between my feet about where You would point your
finger to the ground. I want my dogs to come to me in front and sit and
then I swing them into the heel position from there. I want them to come
in and back into heel position so they don;t walk around me. Then when I
want to line them up I want them sitting perfectly at heel with my toe
pointing exactly where I want them to go. When I'm doing marks I want the
dog to go right to the area of the fall and get the bird. No hunting along
the way. If I line a dog to do a blind retrieve I don't want it hunting
along the way. I bought a dog that had a novice win in the UK in 1995 and
it took me two years to get that out of her system. I later ran a blind
that measure 6/10 of a mile and I had to stop her and give her a left hand
back 7 times and put her right on the bird with a big name sports writer
standing right behind me. I do use a long rope some but I have good luck
with the e-collar teaching HERE. You don't have to weld them to the ground
with one. You don't have to be abusive either. Just always do it the same.
Be consistant.
Ron
>
> Just to say at a great day retriever training and the dog brought the
> dummy
> back each time except the first time when I found a plastic bucket for
> sheep
> food, this was wanged at him and after that he was so much better!
>
> Sonia
>
>
> On 11/7/09 19:54, "Sonia Skinner" wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Excellent advice Torsti and it will be done.
>>
>> Sonia
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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soniaskinner1
SH
Posts:44
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| 07/13/2009 1:32 PM |
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Yes, Drift is a house dog and you may remember he broke his elbow at 16
weeks and was in a small cage 24 hours a day for four weeks, then confined
to a room for a further four weeks then five minutes lead walking three
times a day etc etc. He was 8 months until I could do anything with him and
by then he was physically stronger than I was and a very excitable dog. The
problem of not returning with the dummy started when I took him to some
retriever classes at the beginning of last year, though there was evidence
of it before that if I look closely. It is so frustrating as he is an
excellent retrieving dog and I have been complemented by trainers and one
trainer who field trials wanted to buy him, I had to tell him he wouldn't be
able to work that much with his elbow.
Yesterday was an improvement at a training day put on by a gundog society.
There was a sheep feed bucket nearby and I got the trainer to lob that in
his direction when he started playing around after he had been sent for a
retrieve over a fence, down ravine (English style, not the Grand Canyon!),
up the other side, straight back over the ravine and then this silly
behaviour. After that he began to improve. We had one long seen retrieve
up a steep hill the dummy launcher was behind a corner so we could only see
it once it was high in the air, he marked that well, came straight back and
was sent for a blind in same direction, so that was motivational for him as
he had returned previous dummy to hand.
I am not resting on my laurels yet. But it is such a shame to have a good
dog which I am held back by this problem. I have to say though that
yesterday was a good day with some very testing retrieves and I was pleased
with him; he seemed more obedient, his heeling was excellent and did
everything I asked except bring the dummy to hand to begin with, but as I
said there was a marked improvement.
I think it must have been someone else who had sorted this problem two years
ago. I suppose one good thing is he never drops the dummy!
Sonia
On 12/7/09 22:20, "Jere Murray" wrote:
> Sonia, How frequently do you work with Drift and for how long each time? Is
> he a
> housedog?
>
> Somehow I thought you had cured this issue with him a couple of years ago?
>
> Correction, It may only have been on Marg's Yahoo group 'CanineBH' that I
> wrote
> about the motivational approach. More recently I expanded on that on
> Maurice's
> Yahoo group 'pointingdogs'
>
> Jere
>> I can certainly try that. At the last class at the water, the other dogs
>> did not want to fetch the dummies, spaniels were off hunting the ducks which
>> were swimming in profusion. So there were three dummies to retrieve, two of
>> which were very flat 4"x4" and difficult to see in the water and they had
>> floated away to quite some distance and Drift was sent to collect them.
>> Each one he brought to hand beautifully, shook, sat and then was sent again,
>> so there was an element of motivation there.
>>
>> Afterwards we did a retrieve on dry land over a bridge and he started
>> playing around so we managed to cut his exit, I made him sit and took the
>> retrieve, put him on the lead, gave him a talking to as I walked him to the
>> car, put him in and went back to the class on my own, so denial of a second
>> retrieve.
>>
>> The wretched dog is perfect with me, but a small light is that he now
>> retrieves to hand when I have the 'spaniel man' with me!
>>
>> Sonia
>>
>>
>> On 11/7/09 19:55, "Jere Murray" wrote:
>>
>>> You could also try a motivational method - in which you show the dog it
>>> CANNOT
>>> get
>>> another retrieve without returning all the way to you and properly
>>> presenting
>>> the
>>> retrieved object.
>>>
>>> I may have written on this subject here earlier.
>>>
>>> Jere
>
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soniaskinner1
SH
Posts:44
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| 07/13/2009 1:59 PM |
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I asked the trainer yesterday if we could use a chain to throw at/near my
dog as Torsti recommended and he said "no as it wasn't politically correct
and may upset some people"! However, he did say when we were on our own with
our little group he would certainly give it a go.
We don't do force fetch here, so I wouldn't have known how to do it!
> to retrieve. And then I teach the dog to come to me on the word HERE!!!
> Here is a place. Right between my feet about where You would point your
> finger to the ground. I want my dogs to come to me in front and sit and
> then I swing them into the heel position from there. I want them to come
> in and back into heel position so they don;t walk around me. Then when I
> want to line them up I want them sitting perfectly at heel with my toe
> pointing exactly where I want them to go.
He does all that perfectly with me alone but not in a class! Fortunately he
goes straight out for retrieve and doesn't hunt along the way. He is not
yet as good as your bitch that ran so well 6/10s of a mile, that must have
been quite something to have watched.
I had thought of an e-collar to teach him to bring dummy to hand in class as
I am sure it is only a case of showing off in front of the other dogs, but
of course it isn't politically correct and I am unable to use it, or other
aversive, in a class! Though the sheep feed plastic bucket which happened to
be in the field was used before anyone had a chance to object!
Sonia
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Southerngundog
Posts:9
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| 07/13/2009 2:11 PM |
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In a message dated 7/13/2009 3:46:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
soniaskinner@btinternet.com writes:
I had
thought of an e-collar to teach him to bring dummy to hand in class as
I am
sure it is only a case of showing off in front of the other dogs, but
of
course it isn't politically correct and I am unable to use it, or
other
aversive, in a class! Though the sheep feed plastic bucket which
happened to
be in the field was used before anyone had a chance to
object!
Sonia
I would train alone or find another training group that don't worry so much
about the pc stuff..
Maurice
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