Wednesday, June 19, 2013
Subject: [working-gundog] more on backing
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07/08/2007 12:33 PM
Training sight backing is fairly straightforward and the fact that it is a sight whoa is affirmed by the success of Judas dogs in training field trial dogs. A Judas dog is a plywood silhouette of a dog on point, it will trigger the whoa as soon as a dog sees it. The common method of use is to spring load the Judas silhouette on a wooden base so that it can be released to the upright position by pulling a cord. As soon as the silhouette pops up you yank on the long lead and whoa the dog being trained. By association both the silhouette, and/or the real thing, triggers the whoa. I prefer to train the sight backing by using two dogs, alternating whoaing one dog and then whoaing the second dog as soon as it sees the whoaed dog. This requires two dogs and two handlers. The Judas dog can be used by a solo trainer to affirm the whoa. Cj
07/08/2007 1:27 PM
On 7/8/07, Cj
wrote: > As soon as the silhouette pops > up you yank on the long lead and whoa the dog being trained. By association > both the silhouette, and/or the real thing, triggers the whoa. Or you can use birds
. Train the dog to stop to (wild) flush (STF). (The STF is, I'm beginning to realize, the most important part of dog training and makes an excellent foundation for further training, as in this situation.) Rather then yanking on the lead, flush the bird in front of the silhouette or the pointing dog (remote bird launchers work well for this). The other dog, having already been trained to STF, will stop. As in your example, by association, the dog learns to stop to the silhouette or the pointing dog. No struggle; no competition; no yanking on the lead. The key is to keep the backing dog upwind of the bird (or otherwise well out of the scent cone) and ideally setup so it will come across the pointing dog suddenly. It is still an entirely visual event and so avoids the problems you caution against, but the bird in the air helps clarify the situation to the backing dog. -- Steven Hartman firstname.lastname@example.org
07/08/2007 2:28 PM
> The key is to keep the backing dog upwind of the bird (or otherwise > well out of the scent cone) and ideally setup so it will come across > the pointing dog suddenly. It is still an entirely visual event and so > avoids the problems you caution against, but the bird in the air helps > clarify the situation to the backing dog. > > -- > Steven Hartman ~~~~~~~~~~ I've explained my problems with this technique in other posts. Whenever you try to control three factors (the pointing dog, the bird, the backing dog) you're asking for trouble, when you're thinking about the wind you've a fourth factor. I have found that a significant number of trainers can't do it without making the mistake they don't need. When you train the whoa correctly there's no need to clarify the situation for the dog. There are a lot of training books out there that advocate your method but there are a lot more dogs that you never see in trials and tests and hunting in braces because the trainer screwed the dog by training with birds. If you want a visual signal to trigger the whoa there's absolutely no need for a bird. I'm a social hunter, I like hunting with other guys and their dogs. I know of dozens of nice dogs that cannot be hunted in braces because they were trained to back with a bird. I'm in favor of the simplest and most direct training methods. Remember Murphy's law... one scent of the bird is enough to trigger the urge to steal the point. The straight sight triggered whoa doesn't need a bird and is simple, absolutely reliable and has no risks for the dog's future. I have also spent a lot of hours trying to fix dogs that were taught to steal points by playing around with planted birds... it's a no win proposition for the novice, you experts can play with the birds, I prefer to train the damned dog and go hunting. Cj
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