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cwalt

MH
Posts:180

07/07/2007 5:45 PM
As I understand it you are planning to have a bird out there and then you turn loose two dogs. If both point the bird what kind of backing do you have? Or is the idea to have one dog point and then have the second dog come in and point the same bird? Are you trying to have dual points? That isn't backing... or have you a secret I'm missing? Cj

jmurr

MH
Posts:158

07/08/2007 1:10 AM
I understand backing as you do. If dog-a locates and points a birds and, subsequently, dog-b comes on the scene and sees or scents the bird, dog-b is expected to stop instantly and stand or point in honor od dog-a's point. I have seen some pictures on the internet od PLs purportedly backing in which the dogs all seemed to be clustered together more or less side by side and such contact with the bird that they should be each pointing. It is not possible to know how this "group point" came about, how it happened that all dogs were essentially at the same place, aimed in the same direction at the same time and made pointing contact at the same time. It is more likely that the first dog there pointed and the other dog or dogs rushed over to "share" the point just as these dogs do when one finds and especially interesting smelly spot on the the ground. I suspect this behavior reflects primitive selective breeding for point in these dogs. To whom did you intend to direct your questioon? Jere > As I understand it you are planning to have a bird out there and then you > turn loose two dogs. If both point the bird what kind of backing do you > have? Or is the idea to have one dog point and then have the second dog > come in and point the same bird? Are you trying to have dual points? That > isn't backing... or have you a secret I'm missing? > > Cj > >

cwalt

MH
Posts:180

07/08/2007 8:59 AM
>I understand backing as you do. If dog-a locates and points a birds and, > subsequently, dog-b comes on the scene and sees or scents the bird, dog-b > is > expected to stop instantly and stand or point in honor od dog-a's point. > Jere ~~~~~~~~ Not quite. The problem we have in this discussion is that when the dogs are both pointing the same bird they are pointing, there is no backing by either dog. Pointing is an interaction between the bird and the dog. Backing is an interaction between a pointing dog and another dog. When both dogs expect to point you have a form of competition that leads, quite often, to dogs stealing points from other dogs and creating protocol problems (who shoots what over which dog and which dog retrieves to whom). Brace hunting is far simpler if one dog points (whichever one gets to scent first) and the other dog backs in response to the sight of the pointing dog. The whole issue of backing training with a bird is simply an attempt to get the backing dog to show some intensity while backing. While this might get the backing dog to have intensity in its posture it also leads to the logical problem of two or more dogs pointing the same bird and what to do about how to handle that bird with respect to retrieving ad who shoots and so on. In my experience training backing with a bird in the mix (and we've tried it dozens and dozens of different ways) invariably leads to a significant number of the dogs crowding in and stealing points. When the backing is trained as a 'whoa' triggered by the sight of a pointing dog there is never any problem with the trained dogs stealing a point or crowding the pointing dog. One of the common results of training backing with a bird is dogs that refuse to see another dog on point. I've seen this often in NSTRA trials where one dog is obviously avoiding a pointing dog while trying to get a scent fix on the bird that is being pointed... a perfect prescription for a behavioral mess. I've fought out this issue for years and find that those who follow the train-backing-with-a-bird training books usually have trouble with conflicts between the pointing and backing dogs. We did definitively prove that training backing as a sight triggered whoa without bird scent is the best and most consistently trouble free method. Some dogs naturally honor a point with intensity and it's pretty, but training backing with a bird is almost a guarantee of problems with a versatile dog. With field trial pointers and setters backing training with a bird is sometimes successful in producing intense backing postures but with breeds expected to retrieve such back training is asking for a problem. I could write a book chapter about this single issue alone and having tried it a great number of ways with GSPs, DDs, wirehairs, Weimaraners, Vislas and Brittany Spaniels I will guarantee that the no-bird backing training is the way to go with versatiles. There's a lot more we could discuss about this topic. Cj

cwalt

MH
Posts:180

07/08/2007 11:45 AM
> ... o[f] PLs purportedly backing in which the > dogs all seemed to be clustered together more or less side by side and > such contact > with the bird that they should be each pointing. > ... I suspect this > behavior reflects primitive selective breeding for point in these dogs. > Jere ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I don't understand why this should have anything to do with "primitive" selective breeding for pointing. What is "primitive" selection for pointing? Cj

cwalt

MH
Posts:180

07/08/2007 11:52 AM
>> As I understand it you are planning to have a bird out there and then you >> turn loose two dogs. If both point the bird what kind of backing do you >> have? Or is the idea to have one dog point and then have the second dog >> come in and point the same bird? Are you trying to have dual points? >> That >> isn't backing... or have you a secret I'm missing? >> >> Cj > To whom did you intend to direct your questioon? > > Jere ~~~~~~~~~~~~ It's a rhetorical question. If two or more dogs in the field are pointing they're pointing, there is no backing or honoring of a point by either of the dogs.... they're both doing exactly the same thing. Cj

jmurr

MH
Posts:158

07/08/2007 12:02 PM
I'd better start going to bed earlier!! The passage quoted below was my second late night attempt - the first was gobbled by the webmail server when the ISP dropped me off! That kind of riled me.... The first sentence should have read "If dog-a locates and points a bird or birds and, subsequently, dog-b comes on the scene and sees dog-a stationary, dog-b is expected to stop instantly and stand or point in honor of dog-a's point." I agree with much of what you said except I've watched folks produce stylish, competently honoring dogs (including some v-dogs) with birds present. Perhaps their success has to do with details of the particular technique used training a stand to sight of pointing dog or, more likely, it is more deeply imbedded in the overall program they use to develop all aspects of manners on birds. Jere >>I understand backing as you do. If dog-a locates and points a birds and, >> subsequently, dog-b comes on the scene and sees or scents the bird, dog-b >> is >> expected to stop instantly and stand or point in honor od dog-a's point. >> Jere > ~~~~~~~~ > > Not quite. The problem we have in this discussion is that when the dogs are > both pointing the same bird they are pointing, there is no backing by either > dog. Pointing is an interaction between the bird and the dog. Backing is > an interaction between a pointing dog and another dog... Cj

Southerngundog User is Offline

Posts:9

07/08/2007 4:12 PM
In a message dated 7/8/07 5:56:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jmurr@xyz.net writes: I agree with much of what you said except I've watched folks produce stylish, competently honoring dogs (including some v-dogs) with birds present. Perhaps their success has to do with details of the particular technique used training a stand to sight of pointing dog or, more likely, it is more deeply imbedded in the overall program they use to develop all aspects of manners on birds. Jere That would be the only way I know how to teach backing and produce a stylish and intense dog while it is backing. Maurice See what's free at AOL.com.

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