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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 07/04/2007 5:12 PM |
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| Makes me think that a dog that do not back another dog at point but steals
the point by placing itself in front of the dog that found the bird, is
dominant. Now, if this dominant dog holds the point until given permission
to flush by the handler, then I guess it considers the handler of being the
superior leader of the pack and it considers itself to be number two???
Torsti
~~~~~~~~~~~
The dogs that don't honor another dog's point and steal a point or take out
the pointed bird are usually dogs that don't acknowledge their handler as
pack leader. I don't think they consider the pointing dog as a member of
their pack and they are pretty much uncontrolled in the field. Some dogs
are well mannered and will honor another dog's point, those that will not
have to be trained to back. Training a dog to back doesn't take any
exceptional skill but it does take some time and work and this usually
includes teaching the dog that the trainer is the pack leader. In field
performance there isn't a lot of difference between honoring and backing
except that dogs trained to back stand their position while honoring dogs
exhibit some level of (pointing) intensity. Note: backing should not be
trained with a bird as part of the situation, all too often this leads to
unwanted problems... train the back as a visually triggered whoa or halt and
let the trained dog develop intensity through experience. Perhaps we should
discuss some methods of teaching a dog to back a point?
Cj
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azwhitemtndogs3
Posts:16
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| 07/04/2007 5:52 PM |
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Now is there a difference? When my dogs point a bird in the backyard, it's whoever sees it first that holds true to point. I've never seen one of my other dogs dominant the situation. They are all pointing and looking up in the tree together.
Cj wrote: Makes me think that a dog that do not back another dog at point but steals
the point by placing itself in front of the dog that found the bird, is
dominant. Now, if this dominant dog holds the point until given permission
to flush by the handler, then I guess it considers the handler of being the
superior leader of the pack and it considers itself to be number two???
Torsti
~~~~~~~~~~~
The dogs that don't honor another dog's point and steal a point or take out
the pointed bird are usually dogs that don't acknowledge
their handler as
pack leader. I don't think they consider the pointing dog as a member of
their pack and they are pretty much uncontrolled in the field. Some dogs
are well mannered and will honor another dog's point, those that will not
have to be trained to back. Training a dog to back doesn't take any
exceptional skill but it does take some time and work and this usually
includes teaching the dog that the trainer is the pack leader. In field
performance there isn't a lot of difference between honoring and backing
except that dogs trained to back stand their position while honoring dogs
exhibit some level of (pointing) intensity. Note: backing should not be
trained with a bird as part of the situation, all too often this leads to
unwanted problems... train the back as a visually triggered whoa or halt and
let the trained dog develop intensity through experience. Perhaps we should
discuss some methods of teaching a dog to
back a point?
Cj
Phyllis @ Mesa, AZ
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Southerngundog
Posts:9
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| 07/04/2007 6:15 PM |
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In a message dated 7/4/07 7:43:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
azwhitemtndogs3@yahoo.com writes:
Note:
backing should not be
trained with a bird as part of the situation, all
too often this leads to
unwanted problems... train the back as a visually
triggered whoa or halt and
let the trained dog develop intensity through
experience. Perhaps we should
discuss some methods of teaching a dog to
back a point?
Cj
Best way I have found to teaching backing is through STF.. Once the dog
understand to STF and a bird in the air cues that, then I chain the backing work
in with the dogs. They learn to back with style and intensity same as they point
with. The bird teaches them, remote launchers work well for this type
training.
Maurice
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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 07/06/2007 9:22 AM |
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| > Best way I have found to teaching backing is through STF.. Once the dog
> understand to STF and a bird in the air cues that, then I chain the
> backing work
> in with the dogs. They learn to back with style and intensity same as they
> point with. The bird teaches them, remote launchers work well for this
> type
> training.
>
> Maurice
~~~~~~~~~~
Sounds like an interesting, and workable, idea for dogs that aren't too
competitive. It's a bit difficult for those who haven't any remote release
traps and it does require the steady to flush work to be finished before the
backing work starts.
Cj
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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 07/06/2007 9:24 AM |
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| From: "Phyllis Salsedo"
> Now is there a difference? When my dogs point a bird in the backyard,
> it's whoever sees it first that holds true to point. I've never seen one
> of my other dogs dominant the situation. They are all pointing and
> looking up in the tree together.
~~~~~~~~~
I suspect that there's no opportunity to 'steal' a point when the bird is up
a tree and the pack is one happy family. It isn't at all uncommon to have
two (or more) dogs lock up and point the same scent source at about the same
time. The decision as to which dog is 'stealing' a point cannot be made in
many situations; in these cases handlers should agree in advance on which
dog owner or handler gets to command the flush (tricky choice) or make the
flush and take the shot. The handler that isn't going to take the shot
should go to his/her dog to make sure there's no break to retrieve.
I have a friend with an older DD that hunts pheasants with his other dogs,
she walks close to him when he hunts and as soon as she hears a beeper
collar go off she walks to the other dog and points along with it. She
likes to get in on the action but doesn't care for all this young-dog
running about before the point.
Cj
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 07/06/2007 10:56 AM |
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> Best way I
have found to teaching backing is through STF.. Once the dog
> understand
to STF and a bird in the air cues that, then I chain the
> backing
work
> in with the dogs. They learn to back with style and intensity same
as they
> point with. The bird teaches them, remote launchers work
well for this
> type
> training.
>
>
Maurice
~~~~~~~~~~
>>>Sounds like an interesting, and
workable, idea for dogs that aren't too
competitive. It's a bit
difficult for those who haven't any remote release
traps and it does require
the steady to flush work to be finished before the
backing work
starts.
Cj >>>
Lets see if I am back on the digital line
again.
First: I know that you over there fancy
abbreviations and I know and sometimes use a few of them but now two more
have popped up: STF and OTOH...something. What do they mean?
About backing: More or less for fun we trained our
late Springer the Spaniel to back our ES Foxy on point. It was a pure obedience
thing and since she was implicitly obedient a single word: Stop! was enough.
When we had stopped her a number of times she started to understood that Foxy´s
point must be respected and she started to "back", if that is the right word to
use in this context, since it actually was not a natural backing, only a
obedience thing to prevent her to flush Foxy´s birds, that developed into a
show. We could have continued to stop her anytime when Foxy took point but we
thought it was more fun to do it just when she was slighty on the Foxy´s rear
side, it looked rather amusing when a spaniel backs a setter, particularly when
it grew into an automatic action with no command needed  ))
Yes, they are amusing those working
springers. The working springer (WS)can be defined with a well known formula:
WS=M*C2
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 07/06/2007 3:13 PM |
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| OTOH - standard Internet acronym for On The Other Hand.
STF - not so universal abbreviation for Stop To (wild) Flush - I'm
pretty sure that's what Maurice meant. Release traps are not the only
way to simulate a wild flushing bird. Carded pigeons work well too if
the cover conditions are amenable to the use of them.
Jere
----- Original Message -----
From: "Maud & Torsti"
To:
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] backing and dominance
> Best way I have found to teaching backing is through STF.. Once the
dog
> understand to STF and a bird in the air cues that, then I chain the
> backing work
> in with the dogs. They learn to back with style and intensity same
as they
> point with. The bird teaches them, remote launchers work well for
this
> type
> training.
>
> Maurice
...
First: I know that you over there fancy abbreviations and I know and
sometimes use a few of them but now two more have popped up: STF and
OTOH...something. What do they mean?
...
Torsti
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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 07/06/2007 9:57 PM |
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| jere wrote:
"Release traps are not the only
way to simulate a wild flushing bird. Carded pigeons work well too if
the cover conditions are amenable to the use of them."
I've found both of these methods to be too complex for my client base. I've gone to just using wild feral birds VERY lightly dizzied and THROWN onto the TOP of cover. With this method the clients DO get 1/2 fly offs prior to dog approach, BUT are not ruining nearly 100% of their walkups by having to apply NegRe on the dog. Much safer. Learned in england '69.
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Jere Murray wrote:
> OTOH - standard Internet acronym for On The Other Hand.
>
> STF - not so universal abbreviation for Stop To (wild) Flush - I'm
> pretty sure that's what Maurice meant. Release traps are not the only
> way to simulate a wild flushing bird. Carded pigeons work well too if
> the cover conditions are amenable to the use of them.
>
> Jere
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Maud & Torsti"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 8:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [working-gundog] backing and dominance
>
>
>
>> Best way I have found to teaching backing is through STF.. Once the
>>
> dog
>
>> understand to STF and a bird in the air cues that, then I chain the
>> backing work
>> in with the dogs. They learn to back with style and intensity same
>>
> as they
>
>> point with. The bird teaches them, remote launchers work well for
>>
> this
>
>> type
>> training.
>>
>> Maurice
>>
>
> ...
> First: I know that you over there fancy abbreviations and I know and
> sometimes use a few of them but now two more have popped up: STF and
> OTOH...something. What do they mean?
>
> ...
> Torsti
>
>
>
> |
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 07/07/2007 12:35 PM |
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Thanks folks, for the explanations about the
abbreviations!
Briz chased a moose today! Even though I have given
her the new title of "Lady" I am sometimes tempted to call her "Calamity Briz"
again....
And finally, Maud and me have worked hard today to
make Cj's "The origin of pointing" , together with a lot of pictures, to fit
into our website. You will find it at either under "Last updates" or under
"Training - About pointing" on the menu bar.
Shout if you find any problems, there was a lot of
changing to the codes and something might have been missed!
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 07/07/2007 3:10 PM |
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| How do you get your clients to understand how to ensure the dog does
not detect the bird prior to the flush. If the dog does detect the
bird before the flush it is not a "wild flush." Is the dog under
control or free searching and using the wind?
And, before you began doing this ("I have gone to..."), where in did
the "NegRe" (I presume you actually mean PosPunishment ) come in?
Jere
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu West"
To:
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] backing and dominance
| jere wrote:
| "Release traps are not the only
| way to simulate a wild flushing bird. Carded pigeons work well too
if
| the cover conditions are amenable to the use of them."
|
| I've found both of these methods to be too complex for my client
base. I've gone to just using wild feral birds VERY lightly dizzied
and THROWN onto the TOP of cover. With this method the clients DO get
1/2 fly offs prior to dog approach, BUT are not ruining nearly 100% of
their walkups by having to apply NegRe on the dog. Much safer. Learned
in england '69.
|
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| Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
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azwhitemtndogs3
Posts:16
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| 07/08/2007 1:17 PM |
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Thanks for the response. That was interesting and cute.
Cj wrote: From: "Phyllis Salsedo"
> Now is there a difference? When my dogs point a bird in the backyard,
> it's whoever sees it first that holds true to point. I've never seen one
> of my other dogs dominant the situation. They are all pointing and
> looking up in the tree together.
~~~~~~~~~
I suspect that there's no opportunity to 'steal' a point when the bird is up
a tree and the pack is one happy family. It isn't at all uncommon to have
two (or more) dogs lock up and point the same scent source at about the same
time. The decision as to which dog is 'stealing' a point cannot be made in
many situations; in these cases handlers should agree in advance on which
dog owner or
handler gets to command the flush (tricky choice) or make the
flush and take the shot. The handler that isn't going to take the shot
should go to his/her dog to make sure there's no break to retrieve.
I have a friend with an older DD that hunts pheasants with his other dogs,
she walks close to him when he hunts and as soon as she hears a beeper
collar go off she walks to the other dog and points along with it. She
likes to get in on the action but doesn't care for all this young-dog
running about before the point.
Cj
Phyllis @ Mesa, AZ
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