Monday, May 20, 2013
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] origins of pointing
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07/04/2007 12:20 PM
"Search->Locate" (presumably all be 'Launch') puts an enormous amount of behavior under it. It can be broken down a lot more. Why don't you elucidate the sub-parts under your schism? Stu, Dawn & Hunter West Founder, Pointing Labradors "Letting Labs Point the Way!" Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740 (715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com Jere Murray wrote: > Good to have you back, Stu. > > >> OK, I'll bite. >> > .. > >> Chase->Capture->Kill->Consume (the Four 'C's of Predatorship) >> >> THEN, the sub-groups of "Chase" become: >> >> Quarter->Alert->Track/Stalk->(Re-Locate, if necessary)->Launch. >> > > I prefer Search -> Locate
> > ... > > >> As a solitary predator, no pause would benefit unless there were >> shifting environmental factors such that a 'wait' might offer benefit. >> > > This is where you go wrong, unless the pause observed in solitary hunting wild > canids is simply part of locate, IMO. It could be in some instances, but in others > I think it has relevance to the up-close relationship between the predator and the > already located prey. Maybe this is what you refer to in the the last clause of > the sentence above? > > Jere > >> So, a 'Point/Lock/Stand' might signal a long selective breeding benefit >> from the utility of 'Pack Attack' as opposed to solitary plunder...i.e. >> more avenues of prey escape are closed. >> >> It would seem to me, that this would argue for P/L/S being genetic, >> rather than epigentic since this behavior does arise out of very young >> animals in my experience, that have no game introduction other than >> inutero, and often little of that. >> >> Stu, Dawn & Hunter West >> Founder, Pointing Labradors >> "Letting Labs Point the Way!" >> Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors >> N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740 >> (715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell >> StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com >> >> >> >> >> Cj wrote: >> >>>> I've always wondered if "pointing" wasn't a modified form of >>>> stalking. The two certainly >>>> have a lot of similarities - it's just that a point stops and a stalk >>>> continues into an attack or "flush". >>>> Jerry >>>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> I think you are correct. Certainly the intense concentration on the >>> prey is typical of cats from ocelots to lions. Pointing in dogs is >>> somewhat different in that they can also do it by scent whereas the >>> cats' stalking is almost certainly visual. When dogs do a visual >>> point they act like cats with respect to intensity. Dogs are like >>> lions in that their stalking interacts with other pack members (which >>> is not the case with tigers and leopards) but there the similarities >>> cease. I have had the opportunity to observe stalking behavior in >>> solitary coyotes and foxes and there is a dog-like intensity but these >>> animals do not really point when solitary. I have observed a pack >>> (family group) of red foxes stalk a small flock of ducks and their >>> pack behavior was more doglike with respect to their intensity while >>> holding position; like dogs when one fox rushed the ducks the whole >>> pack broke and attacked. >>> >>> Certainly pointing in bird dogs is an exaggerated and very intense >>> interaction between predator and prey that has many features of >>> stalking. In a normal pack context pointing dogs do not finish the >>> stalk but hold it until the pack leader (human or canine) signals what >>> to do. When there is a social breakdown in the pack relationship >>> pointing dogs will hold position as part of stalking but will >>> inevitably attack the prey without the social control imposed by the >>> pack. In this sense backing and stealing points are variable social >>> components of a stalking behavior. In general I would classify >>> stalking and pointing as "the same thing, only different." >>> >>> Cj >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe send email to email@example.com with >>> message text of UNSUBSCRIBE. >>> Visit the shorthairs.net message board, at www.shorthairs.net (click >>> the Message Board link) >>> >>> >>> >> To unsubscribe send email to firstname.lastname@example.org with message text >> of UNSUBSCRIBE. >> >> Visit the shorthairs.net message board, at www.shorthairs.net (click the Message >> Board link) >> >> >> > > > >
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