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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 12/05/2008 12:03 PM |
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Found this on the net http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/papers/nature_nurture.pdf its
about man but could just as well have been us discussing dogs.
------------------
No one today believes that the mind is a blank slate; to refute
such a belief is to tip
over a straw man. All behavior is the product of an inextricable
interaction between
heredity and environment during development, so the answer to all
nature-nurture
questions is some of each. If people only recognized this
truism, the political recriminations
could be avoided. Moreover, modern biology has made the very
distinction
between nature and nurture obsolete. Since a given set of genes
can have
different effects in different environments, there may always be
an environment
in which a supposed effect of the genes can be reversed or
canceled; therefore
the genes impose no signi½cant constraints on behavior. Indeed,
genes are
expressed in response to environmental signals, so it is
meaningless to try to distinguish
genes and environments; doing so only gets in the way of
productive research.
--------------------------------------------------------
Otherwise I have come into contact with a guy in Hungary who breeds and hunts
with the classical english springer spaniel, the dual puropse variety. He seems
to be a knowledgeable man and a keen hunter. Moved in to Hungary from
Austria to be able to hunt more. He says that the long legged working springer
spaniel can not be found anywhere in the former eastern Europe. The closest
thing he has seen is the modern, small and shortlegged WSS in Italy. So I
guess I can stop looking for the old type now, they seem to be extinct in
Europe. There are some in the USA but importing one from there would mean that
they must stay in quarantine for 4 months. The final cost would be HUGE!
The ice age continues her. Damn nasty weather. I hit a flooded road at about
50 miles/hour in fog. It felt like driving into a wall but I managed to keep the
car on the road and come up on the other side. We are good rally drivers here in
the Nordic countries  )
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel www.rospigan.net "Ask not what your dog
can do for you. Ask what you can do for your dog!"
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 12/05/2008 1:20 PM |
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| Pinker has some very interesting things to say. I heard an interview of him on the
radio one day while I was driving the 400 miles from Interior Alaska to Anchorage
and was impressed enough to want to read something he had written and was discussed
in that interview. Thee book "The Stuff of Thought." I ordered a copy of the
paperback edition, but it hadn't been distributed yet. The seller promised
shipment in August but I haven't seen it yet. Maybe I'd better check on that.
If you haven't already done so, you might find some good stuff among the other
articles at
http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/papers/
I just have had time this morning to glance at the titles which are not very
revealing.
Warm here now, big thaw. But we never had the dump of snow you had. Will get up to
4.5 or 5 degrees C and will rain some more today. At least all the ice is off the
porch and steps now! Need spikes on the shoes to walk with the dogs, though.
Jere
> Found this on the net
> http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/papers/nature_nurture.pdf its about man but
> could just as well have been us discussing dogs.
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 12/05/2008 2:56 PM |
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Yes, it is nice to find people who can express
their thoughts without having to be "politically correct" all the time. I just
saw a program about Charles Darwin that revealed his deeper thoughts about mans
evolution. It is understandable that Darwin, who lived in another time than us,
did not dare to really deeply discuss that man is also nothing else but an
evolved ape. In doing so he could have lost his head. We can just remember
Galileo who, when facing a death penalty as an alternative, was forced to
withdraw his statement of the earth circling the sun.
In my youth I tried to study psychology on a
simpler level, just out of curiosity. It did not make any sense to me, perhaps I
learned something about a child's progressive development to an adult. Not
before I started to learn about dog behaviour was I really able to put
similar human behaviour into its proper context. To make things simple to myself
I today look at humans as a bit complex animals whose many behaviours
are genetically inherited from 100 000 years back. Some are of course
learned and dependent of the current environment.
There is a good, short lesson in human body
language in this short youtube video from the Muppet show. I do not know if it
is possible to see it with a modem connection, but if it is, choose the full
screen mode and study the Latin woman Rita Moreno meeting the similarly hot
tempered and irreverent "the Animal". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yvHWyvexZA
My interpretation is this. Rita is the mother bitch
twice correcting a disrespectful puppy "the Animal". First a serious warning
growl is given from Rita. Then, after giving the puppy a short time of trial to
see if the warning had worked, a harsh correction since the puppy did not
understand the warning in the first place. After the sharp correction the
puppy shows both respect and admiration to Rita (before fainting ))
). I doubt I would have understood an
Freudian explanation to their behaviour ) Anyway who ever directed it managed
to put in a long series of different human body language and behaviour in
those 2 short minutes. I love to see it over and over again...
By the way "The Animal" must be a mutation of a
shaggy, old type working springer spaniel )
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel www.rospigan.net "Ask not what your dog
can do for you. Ask what you can do for your dog!"
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:08
PM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Man or
dog?
Pinker has some very interesting things to say. I heard
an interview of him on the
radio one day while I was driving the 400 miles
from Interior Alaska to Anchorage
and was impressed enough to want to read
something he had written and was discussed
in that interview. Thee
book "The Stuff of Thought." I ordered a copy of the
paperback
edition, but it hadn't been distributed yet. The seller
promised
shipment in August but I haven't seen it yet. Maybe I'd
better check on that.
If you haven't already done so, you might find
some good stuff among the other
articles at
http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/papers/
I
just have had time this morning to glance at the titles which are not
very
revealing.
Warm here now, big thaw. But we never had the dump
of snow you had. Will get up to
4.5 or 5 degrees C and will rain some
more today. At least all the ice is off the
porch and steps
now! Need spikes on the shoes to walk with the dogs,
though.
Jere
> Found this on the net
> http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/papers/nature_nurture.pdf
its about man but
> could just as well have been us discussing
dogs.
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jikoj
JH
Posts:23
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| 12/05/2008 3:46 PM |
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What a hoot! I watched it twice before reading your observations. Pretty astute. Your weather makes our dry cold seem nice. I do start the day with 30 minutes of 10,000 lux "happy light".
Jim Kojis
-----Original Message-----
From: Maud & Torsti
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 3:44 pm
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Man or dog?
Yes, it is nice to find people who can express their thoughts without having to be "politically correct" all the time. I just saw a program about Charles Darwin that revealed his deeper thoughts about mans evolution. It is understandable that Darwin, who lived in another time than us, did not dare to really deeply discuss that man is also nothing else but an evolved ape. In doing so he could have lost his head. We can just remember Galileo who, when facing a death penalty as an alternative, was forced to withdraw his statement of the earth circling the sun.
In my youth I tried to study psychology on a simpler level, just out of curiosity. It did not make any sense to me, perhaps I learned something about a child's progressive development to an adult. Not before I started to learn about dog behaviour was I really able to put similar human behaviour into its proper context. To make things simple to myself I today look at humans as a bit complex animals whose many behaviours are genetically inherited from 100 000 years back. Some are of course learned and dependent of the current environment.
There is a good, short lesson in human body language in this short youtube video from the Muppet show. I do not know if it is possible to see it with a modem connection, but if it is, choose the full screen mode and study the Latin woman Rita Moreno meeting the similarly hot tempered and irreverent "the Animal". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yvHWyvexZA
My interpretation is this. Rita is the mother bitch twice correcting a disrespectful puppy "the Animal". First a serious warning growl is given from Rita. Then, after giving the puppy a short time of trial to see if the warning had worked, a harsh correction since the puppy did not understand the warning in the first place. After the sharp correction the puppy shows both respect and admiration to Rita (before fainting )) ). I doubt I would have understood an Freudian explanation to their behaviour ) Anyway who ever directed it managed to put in a long series of different human body language and behaviour in those 2 short minutes. I love to see it over and over again...
By the way "The Animal" must be a mutation of a shaggy, old type working springer spaniel )
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
www.rospigan.net
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog!"
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Man or dog?
Pinker has some very interesting things to say. I heard an interview of him on the
radio one day while I was driving the 400 miles from Interior Alaska to Anchorage
and was impressed enough to want to read something he had written and was discussed
in that interview. Thee book "The Stuff of Thought." I ordered a copy of the
paperback edition, but it hadn't been distributed yet. The seller promised
shipment in August but I haven't seen it yet. Maybe I'd better check on that.
If you haven't already done so, you might find some good stuff among the other
articles at
http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/papers/
I just have had time this morning to glance at the titles which are not very
revealing.
Warm here now, big thaw. But we never had the dump of snow you had. Will get up to
4.5 or 5 degrees C and will rain some more today. At least all the ice is off the
porch and steps now! Need spikes on the shoes to walk with the dogs, though.
Jere
> Found this on the net
> http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/papers/nature_nurture.pdf its about man but
> could just as well have been us discussing dogs.
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 12/06/2008 6:04 AM |
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>>>What a hoot! I watched it twice before reading your
observations. Pretty astute. Your weather makes our dry cold seem nice. I do
start the day with 30 minutes of 10,000 lux "happy light".
Jim
Kojis>>>
We could make an Freuidian psychoanalysis on
"The Animal" and that would keep us busy to the end of 2009. Or we could
consider him as only a very go-ahead puppy or young dog and be finished
with the analysis within 15 seconds ))
At this very moment it does not rain here so we
better hurry out to the woods and encourage our Briz a bit!
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel www.rospigan.net "Ask not what your dog
can do for you. Ask what you can do for your dog!" |
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soniaskinner1
SH
Posts:44
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| 12/06/2008 1:04 PM |
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Re: [working-gundog] Man or dog?
Torsti,
I have just had a good laugh at the “Animal” clip, excellent observation on your part, I would never have seen the correlation!
I did psychology for one term at College (part of a degree course which I didn’t finish owing to family commitments) one day toward the end of term we were given the title of an essay we had to write, I couldn’t even understand the title, let alone write an essay on it, so I changed subjects!
Sonia
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