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jmurr

MH
Posts:158

11/01/2008 11:34 PM
I'll second that recommendation again. Stu told me about it and asked I read it instantly for some purpose he had but never followed through on. The bibliography is EXTENSIVE - TK found stuff I had missed so he must have worked hard at his chore. Jere > You should purchase a book called Merles Door by Ted Kerasote, Torsti. It is story > of a man and his relationship with a dog he found and includes lots of interesting > sections on what Cj is talking about and what you have brought up too. He is an > "outdoors" writer and hunter. > I bought it via Albiris Books off the internet as a used book quite cheap price but > came in good condition. Freight cost more than the book. > > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maud & Torsti > To: working-gundog@web.whc.net > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 11:03 PM > Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Wise dogs and wise humans > > > I think that in modern times (the last 2000 - 4000 years perhaps) religion has > made an unrestrained relation to animals difficult. In USA the native Indians > call animals for their "brothers and sisters", while our church has always talked > about "animals without a soul" and hence given them little or no value. This of > course has hampered a neutral research on animals until today. It is still > hampering our view on animals and perhaps still a number of human generations > have to pass before we in the future can look at animals in a neutral way and > thereby find entirely new characteristics in them, that we have not seen before > since we have been blinded by prejudice. Who knows???? > > Anyway the way Cj described the coexistence between man and dog is very > interesting, if not breaking new ground, at least on the grassroot level. > Therefore I would like to ask if Cj is willing to put these two messages below > together in one way or another and Maud and me would produce illustrative photos > and capture and publish the lot on our website, like we did with the stuff about > a birddogs point? Is this possible? > > Cj wrote: > >>>>The intellectual advantage that dogs have over wolves is their readiness > to seek help from a human pack member, something that wolves cannot do. > My dogs have trained me to respond to their requests in a relatively > complete fashion, they have trained me to open the door when they want > to go out and to take them for a ride when they want to see the > countryside. They were exceptionally efficient in training me to hunt > properly and to take them hunting when they wanted to go. Wolves don't > solicit help with a problem whereas dogs show no hesitation in > demonstrating their needs and emotional state to a human. Since dogs > can efficiently solicit help from a human they take advantage of human > intelligence to a greater degree than any other species. I consider > that ability to be part of a dog's intelligence. > > I find that many of my dogs' behaviors are asking for something, the > trick is learning what they need help with. I encounter many dog > handlers that are only too willing to try to teach or direct a dog in > how to hunt when the dogs need no help. I run into babblers all the > time and, quite interestingly, they are ready to direct the dog in the > field but haven't a clue when the dog actually requests their help. > Many handlers cannot shut up during a field search but when the dog is > retrieving blind it will often look to the handler to solicit guidance > and the handler stands mute... what a peculiar dichotomy. After > training and working with a few retrievers the trainer often learns to > use body language and subtle signals to guide the dog under difficult > retrieving conditions. Eventually the 'hup' or 'sit' command takes on a > new meaning, it says "pay attention to me" and the dog comes to expect a > human signal of some sort after receiving such a command. Dog body > language can be very subtle as can human body language, you tell your > dog far more than you know. > > The classic, and most easily diagnosed dog question is seen in the water > retrieve in versatile dog tests, it is the solicitation of help, the dog > swims out and suddenly turns and looks to the handler, the dog is > waiting for the handler to throw a stone to direct it towards the bird. > The naive trainer will, more often than not, start searching for > something to throw for the dog, this is a consequence of training of the > handler by the dog. With more sophistication on the part of dog and > handler you can answer the dog's question by the orientation of your > face or the direction of your gaze. Can dogs engage in complex > behaviors?... when a dog approaches and throws a stick or a ball at your > feet it is asking you to play with it, a relatively complex request > involving both solicitation and anticipation linked to a specific object. > > My dogs have a half dozen or so barks or sounds that have specific > meanings and an extensive repertoire of body language to engage my > attention. In this I found that mallard ducks and black ducks are more > vocally communicative than dogs in that they have a richer sound > vocabulary of calls whereas the dogs have a more extensive body language > vocabulary. Most forms of contact that I have with my dogs are > instances in which the dogs want or need something from me, of course > the converse is also true, when I have an interaction with one of my > dogs usually I want something as well. A lot of this kind of behavior > is termed allelomimetic, a fancy word that essentially means they're > copying the body language of their pack mates. Yes, dogs learn a lot of > behaviors from other dogs since they are preprogrammed for learning body > language. It is also important for the trainer to understand that dogs > learn a lot of their body language signals from humans, a form of > communication that is particularly difficult to diagnose. Dogs can, and > do think about things that interest them and are far more than simple > response reaction boxes. You can spend your whole life reading dogs and > still encounter new language from both old and new dogs.>>> > > and: > >>>We have evidence that man and dog have been together for perhaps 35,000 > years and in that time there has been some evidence of coevolution. We > have dogs that almost seem to instinctively understand human emotional > states and human body language but even more interesting is the behavior > of humans that seems to instinctively adapt to dog body language. It is > almost automatic for humans to encourage a dog to approach by squatting > down and holding out the hands. This behavior is naturally a releaser > for the approach of an uncertain dog. Why does spreading out the arms > encourage a dog to come to a human? We have many unlearned responses > and behaviors that trigger innate behaviors in the domestic dog that > seem to be automatic body language interactions understood by the dog. > I can easily understand how a body language sensitive social animal such > as the dog can learn to respond to humans but how do humans > instinctively know so much about dog behavior? Why do dogs "grin" at > humans and yet never display this signal to other dogs? Why does the > heart rate and blood pressure of both dog and human fall when they are > in physical contact? What is the reciprocal calming effect that both > man and dog experience when a man strokes a dog's back? Dogs have been > selectively adapted to man but it also seems that man is selectively > adapted to dogs. > > After examining my own emotional responses to dogs I find that I respond > to them in ways that don't occur to me when I encounter a wolf, fox or > coyote. Part of this difference is learned but part of it is innate. > As far as I can tell humans can easily learn to read a dog but it is a > far more difficult task to learn to read a wolf or coyote. > > When it comes to sniffing, that is scent investigation by a dog, dogs > selectively determine what parts of another dog or person are sniffed. > These body areas are different for mature dogs and puppies and they are > equally different for adult humans and children. Why does a dog > instantly recognize a juvenile human and sniff different body areas than > it does with an adult human? With children dogs sniff the face and head > but with adults they sniff the same body areas that they do with other > mature dogs, a social distinction made by no other animal species. We > are interesting paired species.>>>> > > > > Torsti > > Borta Med Vindens Kennel > www.rospigan.net > > "Merciful God the Almighty! > Deprive me my common sense > so that I can at least to some extent > accomplish my commitments as a > citizen of the European Union!." >

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