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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 10/02/2008 10:39 PM |
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Could someone inform me about the legal use of dogs
for hunting fissiped animals in the USA and also other parts of the world? Can
the dog be used to track, drive out, stop or otherwise used to benefit the
hunter to get the game. Can they be used to find for example wounded game after
a bad shot or game that runs the "normal" escape distance into heavy cover after
a good shot, before they drop dead? I understand that there can be different
rules among the many states in the USA but I am only asking for a general
view.
There are two reasons why I ask. The first reason
is that in Sweden we must by law have access to a trained blood-tracker if we
want to shoot a fissiped animal. The purpose of the law is to secure that
wounded animals will not be lost and suffer more than needed. Are there other
places in the world with similar rules?
The second reason is the never-ending and sometimes
meaningless discussion among particularly handloaders, but sometimes also users
of factory made ammo, about the purpose of different type of rifle bullets
for hunting. Questions like "For what purpose was this bullet developed?"
arise and so do different wild theories.
There are bullets that very consistently drop the
animal in its track (of course provided it is properly placed in the engine
compartment of the animal) but they are also known as notorious meat
destructors.
Then there are other bullets that seldom drop the
animal in its track but bleed it to death, giving it a few seconds time to
escape a distance before it dies from loss of blood pressure. Even if it escapes
into heavy cover this is not a problem as long as you have a dog that can find
it, even in darkness. These bullets do not cause much of a chock wave in the
animal and they rarely destroy any significant amounts of
meat.
Had I not been able to use a dog to find game that
has escaped into cover I would always use the first type of bullets, those that
drop the animal on the spot. Now I most often use the later type, but sometimes
out of curiosity I try all types of bullets to see how they work in practice.
Many, if not most of the fast expanding bullets
that drops the animal instantly are American made, a few come from Germany,
while the most popular large game bullets in Sweden are slowly expanding and
made here and there all over the world, including USA. In Germany and
surrounding countries like Austria and Switzerland it is said that the land is
so shattered that you don't want the animal to be able to escape any distance
because it might drop dead on someone else's land but not where you have
permission to hunt. Hence they sacrifice some good meat in order to secure the
game on the spot. In these countries dogs are used to find the game should it
run away after the shot. In German speaking countries this search has been
made into a form of art, indeed.
In Sweden and USA there is plenty of room, so to
say, and hence it could be strange that we prefer completely different
type of bullets. Now, there is one significant difference beside of the
possible difference in the use of dogs, the distances the animals are shot at.
In Sweden most big game are shot at rather short distances in forest, no
more than 50 - 70 yards or shorter, often much shorter. Hence the terminal speed
of the bullet is rather high and even slowly expanding bullets will do the job
but without any extensive meat destruction. As far as we can understand the
distances in USA are much longer, sometimes up to 500 yards perhaps, and bullets
with a good ballistic coefficient and ability to expand at low terminal speeds
are needed.
However: Is this the only difference or does the
American hunter want the animal to drop on the spot because he is not
allowed to use a dog to find it, should it run into cover? Or are we totally
misinformed, as we perfectly well may be?
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 10/03/2008 4:09 PM |
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| Some states allow the use of dogs to track wounded deer etc. A few even allow the
use of dogs in packs to run deer as beagles are used to run rabbits. I believe,
most states do not allow the use of dogs in hunting such animals at all. Indeed,
in many, dogs found afield during deer season, running deer or not, may be shot.
There is a growing trend in the USA to disallow the use of dogs in the hunting of
any big game animals, but there is also a growing counter-trend to allow the use
of dogs for tracking wounded big game animals, I think. I can not supply fact
based info without a lot of research.
As far as bullet choice is concerned - I don't like to waste meat so I am satisfied
with bleeding the animal to death. Every animal I've killed in Alaska has been
with a .30/'06 with 150 or 180 gr bullets. Most were factory loads but I loaded
some 150 gr Noslers for sheep hunting a long time ago.
My experience is mostly with moose in Alaska. I've killed a couple dozen over the
forty years I've been here. If one puts about any decent bullet into the lungs and
does not make a big commotion, does not shoot again, these animals generally stand
there and bleed out or continue slow walking until they fall without running. It
is said the native people shot moose in the lungs with .22 LR and just waited for
the animal to bleed out. They appear perfectly healthy after the shot. Some
seconds to minutes later the head goes down, then the front knees buckle and
finally the animal falls dead in its tracks. OTOH, if one makes a ruckus or shoots
again the critter is likely to run some hundreds of yards before death. I remember
hunting with a pair of school teachers some twenty five years ago. I had told them
to shoot this way if we found a moose. We did find a nice bull. The moose was
calmly walking agross a hard gravelled area when the first shot was fired. One of
the teachers shot into the lungs. The moose stopped and looked around. The other
idiot just couldn't take it and fired a second shot. This startled the bull and he
started running. He finally fell over dead a few hundred yards away in the middle
of a bog with standing water nearly covering the grass. We went from the prospect
of a large dead animal on a hard surface we could actually drive a pickup truck to
to the thing sinking into the bog muck 75 yards from solid ground in the instant it
took to fire that second shot (I'm sure.). A couple of moose I killed were shot in
the head or neck. They don't go far then and no meat is wasted.
I suspect most moose here are shot with some magnum caliber. .300 Winchester and
.338 are common as is the .375 H&H. Non-resident dudes may show up with more
exotic calibers regularly. More gun than necessary IMO. I watched fro half a mile
away once as my son in law stalked and shot a nice bull moose. he stalked to
within 75 yards and shot the animal in the lungs as it stood broadside to him.
Through the binoculars I saw the moose go down before I heard the shot. When the
bullet hit it literally knocked the animal down. It fell away from the gun and may
even have been displaced a few inches from the impact. That was the impression I
had from a distance but would need video to confirm that impression.
I've shot maybe a dozen Sitka blacktailed deer here. All with .30/'06, 150 - 180
grain bullets - mostly Sierras HLs and Remington factory. All dropped where they
were shot. Three Dall sheep - 150 gr Noslers as I remember. These were the only
bullets I thought much about when I bought them. All were near 400 yards away.
Each was dead in its tracks. One Rocky mountain goat - dead in tracks from bullet
in head, and two black bears - one shot in the neck, the other in the lungs. Both
dropped in their tracks. Two or three caribou, ditto.
Long ago I killed two whitetailed deer in Georgia. Both dropped in their tracks.
One was shot with the .30/'06 the other with a .222 Remington. My wife killed a
few Sitka BTs with the .222 also.
We've never lost or had a difficult search for a big game animal we shot. Bullet
placement is the most important consideration for most animals. Still I have been
told whitetrailed deer are notorious for running dead from heart shots.
I suspect hunters are similar to folks who cause problems with their dogs in
training. Just as with the gunshy or bird blinking dog, they do nothing wrong.
Their shot was "perfect" (maybe followed by more "perfect" shots) but the animal
ran off without leaving sufficient blood trail to be followed and is never to be
found.
First winter storm is hitting eastern Alaska today. 5 - 11" snow forcast in the
area I was headed for so I stayed at home. Got the first "cold" of the winter too,
so I guess I'll be more comfortable here than in the camper watching rain and snow
fall. The bird season may have ended before it bagan this year, for me.
Jere
> Could someone inform me about the legal use of dogs for hunting fissiped animals in
> the USA and also other parts of the world? Can the dog be used to track, drive out,
> stop or otherwise used to benefit the hunter to get the game. Can they be used to
> find for example wounded game after a bad shot or game that runs the "normal"
> escape distance into heavy cover after a good shot, before they drop dead? I
> understand that there can be different rules among the many states in the USA but I
...
> The second reason is the never-ending and sometimes meaningless discussion among
> particularly handloaders, but sometimes also users of factory made ammo, about the
> purpose of different type of rifle bullets for hunting. Questions like "For what
> purpose was this bullet developed?" arise and so do different wild theories.
>
> Torsti
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mcotton
MH
Posts:87
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| 10/03/2008 11:58 PM |
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Can use dogs to hunt deer in NZ all year
'round. Do not use them to chase deer, just indicate and find
wounded.
Some areas you need special permit ie those
with kiwi living.
Generally you need a permit unless private
forestry.
Some forests you can only get a permit to hunt
weekends.
European versatile breeds are absolutely suited to
NZ hunting.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 5:27
PM
Subject: [working-gundog] US
legislation
Could someone inform me about the legal use of
dogs for hunting fissiped animals in the USA and also other parts of the
world? Can the dog be used to track, drive out, stop or otherwise used to
benefit the hunter to get the game. Can they be used to find for example
wounded game after a bad shot or game that runs the "normal" escape distance
into heavy cover after a good shot, before they drop dead? I understand that
there can be different rules among the many states in the USA but I am only
asking for a general view.
There are two reasons why I ask. The first reason
is that in Sweden we must by law have access to a trained blood-tracker if we
want to shoot a fissiped animal. The purpose of the law is to secure that
wounded animals will not be lost and suffer more than needed. Are there other
places in the world with similar rules?
The second reason is the never-ending and
sometimes meaningless discussion among particularly handloaders, but sometimes
also users of factory made ammo, about the purpose of different type of
rifle bullets for hunting. Questions like "For what purpose was this
bullet developed?" arise and so do different wild theories.
There are bullets that very consistently drop the
animal in its track (of course provided it is properly placed in the engine
compartment of the animal) but they are also known as notorious meat
destructors.
Then there are other bullets that seldom drop the
animal in its track but bleed it to death, giving it a few seconds time
to escape a distance before it dies from loss of blood pressure. Even if it
escapes into heavy cover this is not a problem as long as you have a dog that
can find it, even in darkness. These bullets do not cause much of a chock wave
in the animal and they rarely destroy any significant amounts of
meat.
Had I not been able to use a dog to find game
that has escaped into cover I would always use the first type of bullets,
those that drop the animal on the spot. Now I most often use the later type,
but sometimes out of curiosity I try all types of bullets to see how they work
in practice.
Many, if not most of the fast expanding bullets
that drops the animal instantly are American made, a few come from
Germany, while the most popular large game bullets in Sweden are slowly
expanding and made here and there all over the world, including USA. In
Germany and surrounding countries like Austria and Switzerland it is said that
the land is so shattered that you don't want the animal to be able to escape
any distance because it might drop dead on someone else's land but not where
you have permission to hunt. Hence they sacrifice some good meat in order to
secure the game on the spot. In these countries dogs are used to find the game
should it run away after the shot. In German speaking countries this
search has been made into a form of art, indeed.
In Sweden and USA there is plenty of room, so to
say, and hence it could be strange that we prefer completely
different type of bullets. Now, there is one significant difference beside
of the possible difference in the use of dogs, the distances the animals
are shot at. In Sweden most big game are shot at rather short distances
in forest, no more than 50 - 70 yards or shorter, often much shorter. Hence
the terminal speed of the bullet is rather high and even slowly expanding
bullets will do the job but without any extensive meat destruction. As far as
we can understand the distances in USA are much longer, sometimes up to 500
yards perhaps, and bullets with a good ballistic coefficient and ability to
expand at low terminal speeds are needed.
However: Is this the only difference or does the
American hunter want the animal to drop on the spot because he is not
allowed to use a dog to find it, should it run into cover? Or are we totally
misinformed, as we perfectly well may be?
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 10/04/2008 4:29 AM |
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Jere wrote:
>>>>Some states allow the use of dogs to track wounded deer
etc. A few even allow the
use of dogs in packs to run deer as beagles
are used to run rabbits. I believe,
most states do not allow the use of
dogs in hunting such animals at all. Indeed,
in many, dogs found afield
during deer season, running deer or not, may be shot.
There is a growing
trend in the USA to disallow the use of dogs in the hunting of
any big game
animals, but there is also a growing counter-trend to allow the use
of
dogs for tracking wounded big game animals, I think. I can not supply
fact
based info without a lot of
research.>>>>
Thanks! I hope you can start using tracking dogs
all over the country.
The most popular moose caliber, that with a huge
selection of bullets, works perfectly well for any other smaller game down
to black grouse, has been the Swedish Mauser 6.5x55mm loaded with a 156grain
Norma Alaska or Vulkan bullet. It is just on the edge of being legal for moose
and bear but being very accurate with a low recoil has made up for the lack of
power. In addition the long bullet with a high sectional density has given deep
penetration and made it rather deadly.
Today with increasing numbers of wild boar (60 -
300kilogram) and brown bear a little bit more potent calibers are becomming
popular and will in the end outnumber the 6,5x55. The 9,3 x 62mm, similar to the
.375HH is a popular choise. Since distance seldom is a problem old, slow
calibers with heavy bullets like the 9,3x57mm and 8mmMauser can
perfectly well be used. Then there are, as allways, the super-dooper magnum fans
who like to blow the animals to pieces rather than eat them.
I just got some 250grain Woodleigh bullets to my
30-06 and will use the N560 powder for them. I just have to find out how much...
They will hardly fly faster than just a bit over 2000fps but I can brag
about having the highest sectional density in the county  )
My favourite calibre would be the now probably
obsolete .318 Westely Richards Accelerated Rimless Nitro Express. Not because it
is better than any other calibre but because the name is so very, very British.
The bullet diameter, for ex., is not, as indicated by the name, .318 but
.330. Mentioning the name would leave other hunters gaping like empty
birds nesting boxes )) The 30-06 with the 250grain bullet will be rather near
a copy of the .318 WR except for the name. Close enough for me
))
There are two animals that I know of that are
really good in running far with their heart shot to pieces, the roe-deer and the
wild boar. Bad shots are rather common when using flushing dogs on different
(fallow-, red- and roe-) deer and boar are used, and you shoot at running
animals, and many moose are shot when they are walking or running, and hence
every hunting party with any self-respect have one or more good
tracking dogs. The deer and boar dogs, often German breeds like the wachtelhund
and the GWP but also the dual purpose spaniels that bark (the working spaniel do
not bark), and occasionally even setters, drive the animals out from their hide
but do not chase for more than a minute or two. Barking is needed to alert the
pre-posted guns that something is going on now, and indicate where the show is
for the moment. You must shoot at such fast animals like you shoot with a
shotgun and I doubt that there are many riflemen who are really good at it.
Hence the bullets are placed all-over the animal and they can travel long
distances, kilometres in fact, before going down.
The good specialist moose hound will find and stop
moose and bear and bark continuously as long as the animal is not moving or only
moving slowly. The gun can then sneak up and shoot the game. Everything happens
very peacefully.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 10/04/2008 9:32 AM |
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Marg wrote:
>>>Can use dogs to hunt deer in NZ all
year 'round. Do not use them to chase deer, just indicate and find
wounded.
Some areas you need special permit ie those
with kiwi living.
Generally you need a permit unless private
forestry.
Some forests you can only get a permit to hunt
weekends.
European versatile breeds are absolutely suited to
NZ hunting.>>
How many deer are bagged in NZ every year? Stupid question actually, a
search on the net showed that you even farm them. Yes, and now I remember that
you can buy frozen NZ deer on the passenger/car ferries between Sweden and
Finland. They are sold among other delicacies like French duck breast and beef
from Brazil. Didn't I use NZ venison to write about raw spiced meat in Torsti's
corner? I must be getting old, judging from my memory that starts to resemble
that of a gold fish..
Can those who hunt them in the nature use some terrain going vehicle to get
them down from all your mountains or do they have to carry them? Here all
sorts of machines are used to get the moose out, from small single-cylinder
engine powered pullers to piste machines and helicopters. A fresh and strong
hunting party can pull them out by hand.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 10/04/2008 1:26 PM |
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| I had a major yen (desire) for a Swedish Mauser in 6.5 x 55 a long time ago. I
never did buy one though.
The 30/06 has stood me in good stead all these years since I built it on a surplus
Springfield 1903 barreled action bought for $20 from government surplus as a
teenager. I have a box or two of 250 Gr Barnes? bullets but have never loaded any
cartridges with them. Say some more about what you find to be a good load when you
do, eh?
I also have a Winchester Model 70 in .375 H&H but have never killed anything with
it and have only carried it in the field once when we had to retrieve a dead moose
which had been left in parts overnight in a canoe on a salmon stream where grizzly
bears were feeding on dead salmon. We never saw a bear and none had visited the
canoe during the night we had left it there.
My wife has a Model 99 Savage in .308 Winchester but doesn't shoot much.
My dogs regularly tree black bears around our home but it is against the law to use
them to hunt that way without a special permit. I don't have any special desire
to kill anymore black bears and would only go to that if they became a pest. that
almost happened a couple of years ago when one of the dogs got too close and was
cut on the side of his rib cage by the bear. Since then several tens of bears have
been killed by hunters in the area and they do not appear to pose any nuisance
right now.
Jere
...
> The most popular moose caliber, that with a huge selection of bullets, works
> perfectly well for any other smaller game down to black grouse, has been the
> Swedish Mauser 6.5x55mm loaded with a 156grain Norma Alaska or Vulkan bullet. It is
> just on the edge of being legal for moose and bear but being very accurate with a
> low recoil has made up for the lack of power. In addition the long bullet with a
> high sectional density has given deep penetration and made it rather deadly.
...
> I just got some 250grain Woodleigh bullets to my 30-06 and will use the N560 powder
> for them. I just have to find out how much... They will hardly fly faster than just
> a bit over 2000fps but I can brag about having the highest sectional density in the
> county )
>
> My favourite calibre would be the now probably obsolete .318 Westely Richards
> Accelerated Rimless Nitro Express. Not because it is better than any other calibre
> but because the name is so very, very British. The bullet diameter, for ex., is
> not, as indicated by the name, .318 but .330. Mentioning the name would leave other
> hunters gaping like empty birds nesting boxes )) The 30-06 with the 250grain
> bullet will be rather near a copy of the .318 WR except for the name. Close enough
> for me ))
...
> Torsti
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jerry
JH
Posts:31
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| 10/04/2008 6:09 PM |
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| It is still permitted to shoot dogs "running deer" in some states, but
that practice
has become less tolerated and is illegal in most states. There are still
some people
who will shoot dogs anyway. Sad but true.
I dropped my New Hampshire moose in 2000 with a 180gr Remington
Core-Lokt in .30-06. One shot.
Dropped that moose in it's tracks.
Some snow at altitude here as well last night. It's getting cold already!
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 10/05/2008 5:04 AM |
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We are fighting for our right to defend our dogs,
cattle and other domestic animals against attacks from wolf, bear and lynx,
without having to go to jail for doing so. Now there has been some opening in
the legislation but we are not yet very happy with it. The Swedish system of
justice is often totally mad. Someone who was looking (not shooting) at a black
grouse through his rifle scope got several months in jail. Another one who shot
a wolf that was attacking his sheep got 6 months in jail. An 11 year old
girl who was murdered by a lunatic was by a court valued to equalling US$ 38000
(thirtyeighththousend). That is approximately the loss of the income for
the sheep farmer who got in jail and whose business was hence destroyed for a
long time. In Sweden predators are apparently as/or more valuable as our
children. Maybe an elderly person is valued lower than an illegally killed fox
or crow? There is no head or tail in the thinking of politicians, bureaucrats
and civil servants. Everything is run from soapbox on a city square and nobody
seems to know the conditions the people on the country side have to live under.
Representatives from the country side will, as soon they try to represent their
people, be heavily fired upon by "The Green" lobby groups and
the politically correct media. They are helpless....
I could tell you about a lot more madness that has
been brought to the Scandinavia by the European Union but I better refrain from
doing so. It would be an never-ending story of the Soviet style horror, better
suited to be told to some Hollywood copywriter, the late Alfred Hitchcock and
his team perhaps. You got to eat a lot of poisonous fungi before you are
able to hallucinate all the ideas that are daily invented down in
Brussels.
--------------------------------------
Yesterday someone in a hunting party was badly
maltreated by a brown bear that got mad after being hit by a badly placed
bullet. The gang managed to kill the bear but the hunter was brought to a
hospital to be put together in one piece again.
Maud and Briz have gone to Norway to hunt grouse
with Briz brother Birk and his family. This time it will be a stormy trip. Last
night there was hurricane wind forces in southern Sweden, we have a nasty
rainstorm here right now and in Maud's recent residence on the
Norwegian mountain top they have a mixture of strong wind, rain and
snow.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 1:14
AM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] US
legislation
It is still permitted to shoot dogs "running deer" in some
states, but
that practice
has become less tolerated and is illegal in
most states. There are still
some people
who will shoot dogs anyway.
Sad but true.
I dropped my New Hampshire moose in 2000 with a
180gr Remington
Core-Lokt in .30-06. One shot.
Dropped that moose in
it's tracks.
Some snow at altitude here as well last night. It's
getting cold already!
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