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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 09/14/2007 10:42 AM |
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In working out the details of a testing system for young versatile gun dogs
an interesting question has arisen. One of the purposes of the test for
young dogs is to evaluate pointing "instinct" . The test is primarily for
information for breeders and is built about natural instincts and abilities.
In the US for some peculiar reason versatile dog owners have been told that
they have to train their pointing dogs to point. This is invariably through
the "whoa" or "halt" command. Dogs so trained exhibit no intensity in their
points, they just stand for the bird and often flag (waving the tail). We
have seen, in several different testing systems, young dogs that have been
trained so thoroughly that they they don't point. they just stand still at
the first bird scent. In most of the testing systems this stand without
intensity is accepted as "perfect pointing" and awarded high scores.
Several of us have argued that a trained (whoaed) "point" isn't natural
pointing and should be scored very low, almost failing, in a natural ability
test.
How do you feel about this view, is a trained "point" acceptable in a test
for young dogs innate abilities and talents?
Cj
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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 09/14/2007 11:44 AM |
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| OMG you can't downscore THAT!!! It's the basis of all APLA testing!! We
can't have THAT!! What will happen to our dogs? our sales? our kennels??
OMG to disqualify a TRAINED POINT?? Blasphemy...
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
Cj wrote:
>
> In working out the details of a testing system for young versatile gun
> dogs an interesting question has arisen. One of the purposes of the
> test for young dogs is to evaluate pointing "instinct" . The test is
> primarily for information for breeders and is built about natural
> instincts and abilities.
>
> In the US for some peculiar reason versatile dog owners have been told
> that they have to train their pointing dogs to point. This is
> invariably through the "whoa" or "halt" command. Dogs so trained
> exhibit no intensity in their points, they just stand for the bird and
> often flag (waving the tail). We have seen, in several different
> testing systems, young dogs that have been trained so thoroughly that
> they they don't point. they just stand still at the first bird scent.
> In most of the testing systems this stand without intensity is
> accepted as "perfect pointing" and awarded high scores. Several of us
> have argued that a trained (whoaed) "point" isn't natural pointing and
> should be scored very low, almost failing, in a natural ability test.
>
> How do you feel about this view, is a trained "point" acceptable in a
> test for young dogs innate abilities and talents?
>
> Cj
>
> |
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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 09/14/2007 12:12 PM |
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> OMG you can't downscore THAT!!! It's the basis of all APLA testing!! We
> can't have THAT!! What will happen to our dogs? our sales? our kennels??
> OMG to disqualify a TRAINED POINT?? Blasphemy...
>
> Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
While the dog owner and trainer may be proud of what they have done to the
dog their satisfaction does nothing for the poor breeder who is interested
in strengthening the pointing in his line(s). You can use the same training
techniques to teach a pig to sight point, and by the logic of that system
pigs are excellent pointers that should be propagated. I'm interested in
versatility, you know... retrieving and stuff like that. Now have you ever
sent a pig to retrieve a shot bird? I can assure you don't get it back,
just a crunch or two and bird's gone. Also the pig's stamina is often in
question, especially with mature animals in hot weather. They do track well
in cold weather but retrieving from the track is improbable at best.
Anyhow the original navhda natural ability test was designed primarily for
the benefit of the breeder. Of course navhda has completely forgotten that
and they use the utility test to determine the quality of a dog for
breeding. There is no doubt that navhda has discovered a way to make the
training a part of a dog's genetic makeup... (you've heard of
epigenetics?... that's navhda's secret). They get a discount on TriTronics
electric collars.
Cj
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 09/14/2007 12:57 PM |
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>
> How do you feel about this view, is a trained "point" acceptable in a test
> for young dogs innate abilities and talents?
>
> Cj
No!
S
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 09/14/2007 1:14 PM |
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Cj wrote:
>>>How do you feel about this view, is a trained "point"
acceptable in a test
for young dogs innate abilities and
talents?>>>
Interestingly some enthusiastic birddoggers
in Sweden have taken a "huge leap back" in time in puppy training. In the past
almost everything was based on obedience and a young dog should not be exposed
to birds until at least some obedience training was implemented. There were two
schools, depending of where the handlers hunted. On a grain field the dogs
should cast over and search the field with mathematical precision. In the
mountains the dog was preferred to do a more independent job, learning by
experience and neglecting sterile areas were a search would only be a waste of
energy. In both cases the dog was allowed to work the birds until they were able
to nail them by putting a suitable amount of pressure on
them.
However when
the dogs were started on birds so very late they often run over them and flushed
them wildly, just for the fun of it, perhaps, or due to lack of experience. This
in turn resulted in punishment and sometimes a good dog was turned into a
"blinker".
Lately some
trainers let puppies, 2 -3 - 4 months old, investigate, point and flush birds
and gain experience of them. So far they have been pleased with the progress,
some of them are burning hot for the method.
I do not know
for sure but I could for some part be the cause for this change in attitude. You
remember our list member Derry Argue. He made a number of videos about training
both puppies and older dogs and about how to rear and use Bobwhite quail as a
training bird. Maud and me imported a lot of his videos to Sweden. In those days
the UK pound was rather inexpensive and we could make a small profit to cover
the cost and then some more. I do not have any precise figures but we must have
sold a few hundred of them, a pretty large number considering that Sweden is a
small country. In those days they were viewed upon more like a good show and
less as a source for very old knowledge about how to train birddogs. In Sweden
we know best, unless you already knew about that fact  ))
Anyway the
videos have for sure circulated among a huge number of birddoggers, they have
been copied and borrowed and sooner or later someone must have started to think
that there might be some truth in them.
In any case the
method will develop natural pointers that in the future will learn to handle
birds without interference from the handler and stop them from running until the
handler can come up and tell the dog to flush them.
To me it seems like the modern dog that points on command by obedience will
soon belong to the past and the knowledge from the past will be our leading star
when training dogs in the future!
Did I express myself artistically enough ))
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog
can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 09/14/2007 1:35 PM |
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Re: [working-gundog] on pointing in young dogs
Did I express myself artistically enough ))
Torsti
Absolutely! Much better than I did!
Sonia
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craig
JH
Posts:27
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| 09/15/2007 5:31 AM |
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Pre hunting lethargy?
Actually this is the busiest time of year for me. School opened last
week (www dot prairieview dot ca) as did the waterfowl season. When I
am not in my school barking orders at the staff and students I am in
the field keeping my mouth shut following the dogs.
I hope to keep a blog of the season this year. It is almost ready to
launch. Lots of photos and up to date updates of our days in the
field. This year we will be hunting in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, North
Dakota, South Dakota, Germany, Holland and maybe France. And in case
you are wondering how I can afford the $$ and time to do all of that,
its not that hard at all:
I work 24/7 the rest of the year and eat mainly Kraft Diner and day-
old bread.
> Have we succumbed to lethargy? Or is it pre-hunting season
> preoccupation?
> Cj
> |
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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 09/15/2007 8:59 AM |
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Did I express myself artistically enough ))
Torsti
Yes, very much so.
Cj |
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 09/15/2007 2:39 PM |
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| When are you headed for the Dakotas, Craig?
This is not the year to hunt birds in Alaska - leastwise not the many places been
during the past two and a half weeks. The "cycle" is headed down, so it may be
about over for this old fart. Hard to imagine populations getting much lower.
Jere
> Pre hunting lethargy?
>
> Actually this is the busiest time of year for me. School opened last
> week (www dot prairieview dot ca) as did the waterfowl season. When I
> am not in my school barking orders at the staff and students I am in
> the field keeping my mouth shut following the dogs.
>
> I hope to keep a blog of the season this year. It is almost ready to
> launch. Lots of photos and up to date updates of our days in the
> field. This year we will be hunting in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, North
> Dakota, South Dakota, Germany, Holland and maybe France. And in case
> you are wondering how I can afford the $$ and time to do all of that,
> its not that hard at all:
> I work 24/7 the rest of the year and eat mainly Kraft Diner and day-
> old bread.
>
>
>
>> Have we succumbed to lethargy? Or is it pre-hunting season
>> preoccupation?
>> Cj
>>
>
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 09/15/2007 2:41 PM |
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| I believe I recently heard that NAVHDA has now "outlawed" the use of "whoa" on a
dog on point. If so, this should allow some trainers to display their probably
considerable ingenuity to train the dog to stand without verbal encouragement.
Jere
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craig
JH
Posts:27
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| 09/15/2007 3:35 PM |
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On 15-Sep-07, at 3:29 PM, Jere Murray wrote:
> When are you headed for the Dakotas, Craig?
North Dakota around the 22nd of Oct. South Dakota mid November. I
usually wait until the crowds thin out after the opening week.
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mcotton
MH
Posts:87
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| 09/15/2007 5:04 PM |
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| No! But I would try and differentiate between the trained point on command
pup and the one the owner stops as it is creeping in.
I've noticed among a certain group the the head and nose pointing at the sky
seems to be the latest idea of "style".
>
> How do you feel about this view, is a trained "point" acceptable in a test
> for young dogs innate abilities and talents?
>
> Cj
>
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 09/15/2007 7:51 PM |
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Marg wrote:
>>>I've noticed among a certain group the the head and nose
pointing at the sky
seems to be the latest idea of
"style".>>>
Maybe they are "flight pointers"? In the past, when
Foxy was young and her hearing was good, we were allowed to shoot woodcock in
the evening flight in the middle of the summer. You see; the reproduction of the
woodcock takes place in april/may. The female is fertilized but the male, still
full of testosterone, continues its evening flight along the borders of its
territory well into july, making two different sounds alternatingly. One of the
sounds has a very high pitch and the dog can hear that from a much longer
distance than the human ear. Hence we had not only late Springer with us when
shooting the males in the evening but also Foxy. You could say that when Foxy
started "flight pointing" you knew that it was time to get ready with the gun.
The dogs loved it and hated when we missed a bird and it was very important to
have them with us. Not only could they indicate the males very early. The best
flight was when it started to become dark so a killed bird was very
difficult to find in the terrain, often dense forest terrain, without a dog. A
small group of hunters loved this tradition that was banned just overnight by a
politically correct politician. I belive that not even the prime minister liked
the ban since later, after some more political quarrel, he sent this woman
to Brazil as an ambassador for Sweden. As far as I know she is still there. I
just wish he could have sent this woman even further away, say Antarctica!
Well, the Swedish hunters organisation is
still fighting to get this traditional shoot back for the few enthusiast who
loved it and they say that the hope has not faded away yet.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
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mcotton
MH
Posts:87
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| 09/16/2007 12:19 AM |
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Hope they win Torsti.
This politician would have done well in Antactica,
the skua gulls need a spokesperson for them.
Those pointers might do well in NZ too, the quail
fly into the trees and just dissapear into the branches and leaves or pine
needles. If a dog can scent a bird above it the dog tends to jump up on
hindlegs trying to pinpoint the bird, not often seen semi
pointing upwards. Perhaps these skyward pointing pointers might be
ideal for us?
A small group of hunters
loved this tradition that was banned just overnight by a politically correct
politician. I belive that not even the prime minister liked the ban since
later, after some more political quarrel, he sent this woman to Brazil
as an ambassador for Sweden. As far as I know she is still there. I just wish
he could have sent this woman even further away, say Antarctica!
Well, the Swedish hunters organisation is
still fighting to get this traditional shoot back for the few enthusiast who
loved it and they say that the hope has not faded away yet.
Torsti
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tc
MH
Posts:117
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| 09/21/2007 8:48 PM |
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| Hello Jere,
Finally home from summer camp and getting settled in. Flying dogs out,
owners picking up
Dogs. Just had a couple in from Alaska to pick up one of their dogs. Took
them out dove
Hunting this evening. He managed to get his limit. Took him awhile to zero
in on the birds.
He bagged mostly white wing. Three Eurasian. Some morning dove. The Eurasion
are fun to hunt,
No limit on them. We bagged 43 of them the other evening, them limited out
on whitewing. If
The dove hunting is any sign of our upcoming quail season it is going to be
a BANNER year for
Quail.
tc
-----Original Message-----
From: working-gundog-request@web.whc.net
[mailto:working-gundog-request@web.whc.net] On Behalf Of Jere Murray
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 2:30 PM
To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] on pointing in young dogs
When are you headed for the Dakotas, Craig?
This is not the year to hunt birds in Alaska - leastwise not the many places
been during the past two and a half weeks. The "cycle" is headed down, so
it may be about over for this old fart. Hard to imagine populations getting
much lower.
Jere
> Pre hunting lethargy?
>
> Actually this is the busiest time of year for me. School opened last
> week (www dot prairieview dot ca) as did the waterfowl season. When I
> am not in my school barking orders at the staff and students I am in
> the field keeping my mouth shut following the dogs.
>
> I hope to keep a blog of the season this year. It is almost ready to
> launch. Lots of photos and up to date updates of our days in the
> field. This year we will be hunting in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, North
> Dakota, South Dakota, Germany, Holland and maybe France. And in case
> you are wondering how I can afford the $$ and time to do all of that,
> its not that hard at all: I work 24/7 the rest of the year and eat
> mainly Kraft Diner and day- old bread.
>
>
>
>> Have we succumbed to lethargy? Or is it pre-hunting season
>> preoccupation? Cj
>>
>
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 09/22/2007 3:01 PM |
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| Hi Terry, We're still trying to decide whether we'll make the long drive this
winter and, if so, how long the drive will be....
Thanks for the prediction, maybe we'll see you later.
Right now I'm "on vacation" from hunting. Older dog had major allergy issues which
plagued him for the whole 2 1/2 week trip. I brought him back to see the vet in
Anchorage planning to turn right around and head back north. The meds they gave
him hit him too hard I guess and he's just now starting to slowly come around, eat
some food etc. He isn't scratching contiuously anymore but isn't doing much of
anything else either. Lost 10% body weight in siz days and he was not well padded
to begin with. Wish I had a roadkill moose to feed him.
Second or third frost here this am. Snow beginning to show on the surrounding
mountains, but has melted off each time so far.
Saw another of those discusting scaled quail shooting shows by Randy Lack on TV the
other day. He might as well leave the dogs at home and drag a chain between
several fourwheelers to flush the birds... But, I guess for the American public
hunting is all about body count.
Jere
> Hello Jere,
>
... If
> The dove hunting is any sign of our upcoming quail season it is going to be
> a BANNER year for Quail.
>
> tc
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