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Subject: [working-gundog] Obedience and shaping the retrieve delivery.
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rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


08/30/2008 10:15 AM  
Since we have a couple of gundog obedience classes every year we will at each start of a class have to regard one or two individual equipage with a problem that is difficult to analyse immediately. My self-confidence and skill is kind of not enough to do it. If I due to performance anxiety dare to express some sweating opinion about a psychological trauma the dog has contra the handler, it will later proof to be a terrible mistake.
 
It is much better not to take any particular respect to the unlucky handler but only to calm him with a few comforting words like "Let's have a few lessons and see how the dog reacts to them. Then we can have a new, deeper look at it." This will give us a change to catch the breath and ponder about the problem with the equipage.
 
It use to boil down to one of two possible stocks. The odd thing is that the problem always seems to have only either one of two answers, no matter how much psychology has in the beginning whirled around my in head. Another odd things is that I never learn to neglect these thoughts when they pop up.
 
One, and the most common, of these two causes to problems is lacking leadership. The influence of leadership on the pack animals (dogs) behaviour is so deeply rooted in the DNA of the dog so not even the most skilful surgeons is unable to remove it. The most  eloquent Pentecostalism preacher can not speak it away and no dog shrink in the entire world, or his customers, can neglect it in the prolongation without finally stumbling over it.
 
The only thing that can suffocate the control the leadership gene has over the dog, is another gene that controls the dogs behaviour towards stimuli from the environment around it - namely the gene than determines the dogs nerve stability and courage.
 
If a dog has a tendency to be nervous and anxious and lack the courage to meet and handle the everyday situations it will develop "private" problems. If the degree of nervousness is "moderate", as it most often is, it will be enough to release it from the responsibility and decision anxiety by taking over the leadership from it. It will recover it's breath, clam down and become a pleasant and self confident individual knowing its rank and  that its new pack leader (the handler) will take care things that is not meant to be the of concern to the low rank dog. 
 
So far all, without any exception all ailments the equipage can have with leadership training. The result of such training is always depending of how well this training succeeds with the reference to the handler, not the dog,  and hence how well the handler will manage the leadership over his dog.
 
Then we have the more rare cases when the dog is unable to receive the training. Not because it is "hard" but because it might be too nervous to even notice that someone is trying to break it. This is the case when a gene has taken control over another gene and we humans can not do a damn thing about it, at least nothing of permanency.
 
Hence: If a dog can make good deliveries at home on the back yard but not on other, more exciting places, we have a case of part-time leadership. The dog considers the handler to be the pack leader as long as it feels that the handler can handle the present, often calm situation. When things are winding up, from the dogs point of view, then it takes command and challenges its handler.
 
To solve this problem, when it has been well established in the dog, calls for some kind of choke treatment. Remember that the dog is entirely convinced that as soon as the equipage leaves the security of home it has to take command. I remember a visiting ES (of all nasty, bloodthirsty fighting dog breeds) that bite its mistress when they came to us and Maud gave some advice about how to handle the dog! It simply refused to obey its owner since they were at a place where the owner, from the dogs point of view, had no control.
 
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
soniaskinnerUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:98


08/30/2008 1:33 PM  
Re: [working-gundog] Obedience and shaping the retrieve delivery.

Hence: If a dog can make good deliveries at home on the back yard but not on other, more exciting places, we have a case of part-time leadership. The dog considers the handler to be the pack leader as long as it feels that the handler can handle the present, often calm situation. When things are winding up, from the dogs point of view, then it takes command and challenges its handler.

I think this is very true in my case.  When in company I feel nervous with fear of failure.

To solve this problem, when it has been well established in the dog, calls for some kind of choke treatment.

Explain:-)  

Sonia

rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


08/31/2008 7:07 AM  
Re: [working-gundog] Obedience and shaping the retrieve delivery.
>>To solve this problem, when it has been well established in the dog, calls for some kind of choke treatment.

Explain:-)  

Sonia>>
 
I wish I could! What is a shock for one dog the other one may not even notice, herewithin lies the problem with distant solutiones.
 
There are people who are absolutly dependent of their dog and have to trust it to 100%. They train their dogs with slightly different methods than those, like most of us, who only train dogs as a hobby. Seek them. They can be found among the police and armed forces and those who train lead dogs for example. Duty dogs in other words. I guess this is the best advice I can give you. They should be able to analyse the relation you have to your dog better than ordinary spaniel and retriver trainers.
 
Torsti

Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


08/31/2008 10:07 AM  
Re: [working-gundog] Obedience and shaping the retrieve delivery.
And it struck me that sheep dogs must be totally reliable at any distance so sheep dog handlers might be able to help you.
 
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Obedience and shaping the retrieve delivery.

>>To solve this problem, when it has been well established in the dog, calls for some kind of choke treatment.

Explain:-)  

Sonia>>
 
I wish I could! What is a shock for one dog the other one may not even notice, herewithin lies the problem with distant solutiones.
 
There are people who are absolutly dependent of their dog and have to trust it to 100%. They train their dogs with slightly different methods than those, like most of us, who only train dogs as a hobby. Seek them. They can be found among the police and armed forces and those who train lead dogs for example. Duty dogs in other words. I guess this is the best advice I can give you. They should be able to analyse the relation you have to your dog better than ordinary spaniel and retriver trainers.
 
Torsti

Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
soniaskinnerUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:98


08/31/2008 1:51 PM  
Re: [working-gundog] Obedience and shaping the retrieve delivery.




And it struck me that sheep dogs must be totally reliable at any distance so sheep dog handlers might be able to help you.

Thanks for your thoughts Torsti, but Drift is obedient at a distance, will sit to whistle, recall  etc.  it is within a foot of me when he has a retrieve that he is disobedient, not coming the last bit and jinxing away.

Sonia

soniaskinnerUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:98


08/31/2008 1:51 PM  
Re: [working-gundog] Obedience and shaping the retrieve delivery.

who only train dogs as a hobby. Seek them. They can be found among the police and armed forces and those who train lead dogs for example. Duty dogs in other words. I guess this is the best advice I can give you. They should be able to analyse the relation you have to your dog better than ordinary spaniel and retriever trainers.

Torsti



I did some obedience training with an ex police dog trainer last year and he thought my dog was super, thought I was lucky to have a dog like him.  I lent him the obedience DVD you sent me and he has never given it me back despite my name and address on it!  We got about as far as we could go, to the limit of the class so as it was a fair distance to go, we stopped. It was quite tough training, maybe I have let it slip, I do lack the inner will. Drift doesn’t challenge me in a dominant way, he is playful, but I guess the playfulness is still disobedience when I am asking him to return the dummy to hand and he is jinxing away.

Sonia
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